Migration from Lislee to Cheltenham

Pete,

The attached may be of some assistance to you.

Regards,

Many thanks for taking the trouble to send those. 

Pete

Pete,

Please see attached on Courtmacsherry and Lislee - 1837 - Lewis' Dictionary.

Credit: John and Eoin Grenham.

Regards,

Pete,

The Encumbered Estates court was very similar (in Ireland anyway) to the financial crash around 2008. The Great Famine was just over and the income of many landlords had fallen dramatically. However, for many their lifestyle had not changed and they were still spending as if nothing had happened. In many cases, their properties were mortgaged to fund the maintenance of a good lifestyle. Therefore, their debts were greater than their assets, and when the debts were called-in they couldn't afford to pay them. They had to sell their property at considerably less than it was worth. In that way, property ownership changed hands and those with a little bit of cash could acquire land at a cheap rate. Yes, it is possible that evictions followed. This is probably a simplification of the situation, which probably involved a multitude of other issues. But it does explain it without getting into too much detail.

There were a number of reasons for emigration from Ireland in the period you refer to. The famine from 1845 to 1851 is called the Great Famine. One of the reasons for this is that it was. There were many other famines in the first half of the nineteenth century, some local and some and some more widespread but not as serious as the 1845 one. For example, the famine of 1822 was caused by heavy rain on the potato crop of the previous year. It mainly affected Connaught and west Munster. All of this misery and lack of opportunity would have encouraged people to emigrate, possibly to an area where other family and neighbours had emigrated to.

In the early nineteenth century, a father could divide his land holding equally among his children, even before his death. This led to multiple reducing tenancies that were more difficult for the landlord to deal with. In 1826 a law was introduced to prohibit this practice. A father could only leave his tenancy to one child and only on death or retirement. This was generally the eldest son.  Therefore, second and third (and other) sons had little prospects if they stayed at home. Emigration was an option; and as you say, 'chain migration' sounded good. The 1826 law would have taken a few years for the impact to be felt, and its implementation was probably increased and complexed with the Great Famine.

Don't know if this will help, but these are just a few thoughts that may lead to further research possibilities.

Best wishes, Kieran

Just wanted to say, Peter, that sounds like an interesting topic for an M.A. Some of my ancestors, the  Brushneens, who I have been researching, also came to Cheltenham from County Cork in the 1850s. I thought this was perhaps an isolated kind of thing, but clearly not, from what you’re saying. Patrick Brushneen, the eldest child of that family, married a Johanna Regan, and her father Timothy I think came from Lislee in Cork (though I’m not completely sure of that)

Many thanks to everyone who has responded so helpfully. Some very interesting and useful information. Michael: yes, I too think Timothy Regan originated from Lislee, and he and his family are of particular interest to me, because they are one of a group of 4-5 families who appear to have connections to both Lislee and Cheltenham and seem also to have spent time at Feargus O’Connor's Chartist colonies at Snigs End and/or Great Dodford. In fact, Johanna was born at Great Dodford on 9 Oct 1851 and baptized in the Roman Catholic church in nearby Bromsgrove on 12 Oct 1851. I'd love to understand more about what they were doing there. None of these families appear to have been allottees who were assigned plots on the colonies, but I suspect from the dates of birth of some of their children that they might have been employed to set up and prepare the colonies before the colonists' arrival, and some appear of the families to have taken plots after some of the colonists abandoned the site.

Let me know if this is of interest. I have pieced together a bit about the Regans' story. Timothy Regan had married Mary Conolly in Ledbury, Herefordshire in 1848 (marriage witnessed by a couple named Jeremiah and Honorah Murray - Honorah was definitely from Lislee). I suspect Mary had a sister or cousin named Catherine, as a Catherine Conolly married James Hurley in Lislee in 1840, and they and James's brother Michael Hurley all spent time at Great Dodford too (Michael was there on the census in 1861 and 1871 and died in Bromsgrove Workhouse in 1881). A Bartholomew Conolly (possibly their uncle?) was living with Michael in 1861 at Great Dodford, but died in James's house in Cheltenham a year later. The other couple with connections to Great Dodofrd and Cheltenham was  Patrick Sexton and his wife Margaret Tobin, who married at Lislee in 1831. A daughter Joanna Sexton was baptized at St Peter's (RC), Bromsgrove in 1848. In 1851 they were in Cheltenham, but had emigrated to the US by 1860. The final family I have to mention is Timothy White and his wife Ellen Murphy: they were living at the same address as the Sextons in 1851, and the 1861 census says two of their children had been born at Snigs End.

I really have no idea what's going on here, but the connections seem too many to be a coincidence!

Pete

Hello All, on the off chance it is relevant, this place is in West Cork near but not too close to the parish you meniton, a lot of Cornish people apparently came and while Cheltenham is not in Cornwall it too is near and there may have been copper mining there too resulting in a flow of workers.

Just a thought. https://curiousireland.ie/allihies-copper-mines-allihies-county-cork-18…;

Regards

Pat

Thanks Pat. The nearest mines to here are in the Forest of Dean (coal, iron ore, plus quarrying) but that’s a good 40km away. I have collier ancestors from there.

Pete

I’m finding this of great interest Peter. Can’t help thinking that it was the prospect of work at Great Dodford that drew them over from Ireland in the first place? At least the Regans, and when that work was finished, they thought Cheltenham would be a good prospect?

Yes, that's possible Michael, though quite why all of them came here is a puzzle to me, unless they influenced one another in that choice. And some had passed through Cheltenham on the way to Dodford (judging from baptism records). Anyway, if you want to see what I've pieced together on the Regans, and have access to Ancestry, here's the link to Timothy: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/183322204/person/282…

You can also email me at peteclifford58@gmail.com or peteclifford@connect.glos.ac.uk

Pete