McCaughey McCahon Killymuck Glebe Tamlaght O'Crilly

Mick,

MacLysaght’s “The Surnames of Ireland” says that McCahon is “Usually a variant of MacCaughan; sometimes of MacGahan in Ulster.” So the 2 names are interchangeable and clearly your family used both at various times. That was very common.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the variations in the names. Other examples of families with varying surnames I have come across are: McDowell & Madole, Robertson & Robinson, Kilpatrick and Kirkpatrick, Nogher & Connor, Patterson & Pattison, Faulkner & Falconer, McConnell & McDonnell, Kerr & Carr, Stewart & Stuart, Stevenson & Steenson, Logue & Molloy.  So very common.

I wouldn’t worry about which version appears on your ancestors certificates. Focus on the townland, age, occupation etc, to help evaluate whether you are likely to have found your family.

I assume you know the 1831 census for Killymuck has survived. If not, you might find it helpful. It's on the usual Irish census site.

I located a few additional details on your Sutton line in South County Dublin - e.g. baptism of Winifred and her siblings, her parents marriage and where the family lived. Let me know if you dont have this information already and I'll update here...

Shane, thanks I have virtually no information on Winifred Sutton or her family and would be very happy if you pointed me in the direction of thsi information.

Thanks Mick

Elwyn, thanks I wasn't aware that the 1831 Census information was available for Killymuck and it was very interesting. There were several McCaughey families listed but no McCahons. So Killymuck went from having lots of McCaughey families in 1831 and no registered McCahons to completely the opposite by the 1911 Census - all McCahons and no McCaugheys. I had initally tried to reconcile the idea that McCaughey/McCahon might just be simply different pronounication and scoured alternative spellings for both McCaughey and McCahon. But I never really found any satisfactory overlap and while I could see how the "McCaugh" and "McCah" bit could be due to pronounication, I struggled to see how the ending "hey" and "hon" could get confused.

And if it was just different pronounciation I expected to see a mixture of recordings - soemtimes as McCaughey and sometimes McCahon. But except for my ancestor John, who seemed to have used both surnames up until his death, once a person made the name change to McCahon, the surname McCaughey was never used again. This is especially the case for Nancy Anne, John's youngest female sibling, who married in 1895 and then went on to have at least six children pretty much all in Killymuck and not once in any of the records was her registered birth name of McCaughey used.

Mick,

It wasn’t poor pronunciation that led to the different spellings. There were 2 different versions of the name, both in use in the 1800s and early 1900s, mostly according to whim. In the main it’s the way the name has come to us from Gaelic. In Gaelic spelling varies all the time, depending on the context and grammatical case being used. 

As a simple example, the Irish name Séamas (James) in the nominative becomes Shéamais in the vocative case, ie when you are addressing him. Same name, different spelling. Plurals vary as well. So it’s easy to end up with different spellings for the same name. Then if you decide to “fix” the spellings you can end up with choices, or, as in this case, different versions. Anglicising the names often led to other alterations too. 

Don’t get too hung up on the idea of a single “correct” version of the name. It wasn’t like that in Ireland. Spelling varied all the time. Poor literacy didn’t help either, but in the main folk weren’t that bothered anyway. (In the 1831 census, you may have noticed the Killymuck families were mostly McCaughey, but there was also 1 McCaughy. There’s no significance in that. Just another minor variation).

Often the spelling was at the whim of the person recording the information. As a more powerful example, here’s the John Nocher family in Megargy townland, Magherafelt in the 1829 tithes:

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/derry/tithe-applotments/magherafelt-parish.php

Here’s the same family in 1831, only as Connor:

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/derry/tithe-applotments/magherafelt-parish.php

Connor is an alternative version of Nocher/Nogher. You need to know that. It’s not something easily worked out. One’s the anglicised version of the other. Both were being used at the same time, for the same family.

You may have noticed that the spelling of the townland Megargy varied as well between 1829 & 1831. That’s another example of the relaxed approach to this issue.

Welcome to the eccentricities of Irish names and records.

Some details on your Sutton family…

Starting with the confirmed link, the marriage between John McCaughey and Winifred Sutton (IrishGenealogy.ie), this took place at the Presbyterian Church on Ormond Quay in Dublin City on the 17th January 1868. It’s the first marriage for both and they are both recorded as ‘full age’, i.e. 21 or over, and both living at Richmond Barracks. John is shown as a Soldier 60th Reg.

The groom’s father is noted as William McCaughey a farmer, and the bride’s father as Michael Sutton a Bricklayer, the witnesses J. Jameson and Mary Sutton – Mary is likely a relative of the bride’s possibly a sister (see later..)

Following on from your clue re your Sutton family originating from Golden Ball, I checked that area and see a number of possible Sutton families, most of which were Church of Ireland. The Church of Ireland parish for the areas at the time was Kiltiernan, and most of the registers have been transcribed by the Anglican Records Project, although some were around Golden Ball these show no sign of a likely match for your Sutton family, i.e. father’s name Michael, or child named Winifred or Mary Winifred.

I also checked the Catholic records for the area, the parish at the time was Sandyford (aka Sandyford and Glencullen/Glancullen), these showed a promising match for your Sutton line – a Michael Sutton and wife Winifred  Dunn(e) with at least 10 children baptised in the parish between 1844 and 1866 – see below :

Margaret 1844
Winifreda 1846
Sarah 1848
Jacobus 1850
Maria 1851
Michael 1854
Elizabetha Maria 1856
James 1858
Julia 1861
Daniel 1866

Some of the names are recorded in Latin – Maria = Mary, Jacobus = James etc

Mary bapt. 1851 is probably that witness to the marriage of Winifred.
Here’s a link to the register showing Winifred’s baptism (NLI RC registers), see the second entry on the left page ref. 287.

Some of the earlier baptisms do not record the mother’s maiden surname, but most show her surname as Dunne, there were no other likely Sutton families - i.e. husband Michael.  Later baptisms also give residence of the family - Ballycorus or Barnaslingan.

The youngest child Daniel was born after the start of civil registration of births, so there should be a civil record for him, which would give a little more detail – e.g. father’s occupation, but I’ve not been able to locate one, it’s possible he was not registered – compliance was not good in the early years of registration.

I was able to find a death for Michael Sutton in 1875 age 50 (IrishGenealogy.ie), occupation bricklayer, informant – Winifred Sutton, the residence is Ballycorus or Barnaslingan, so fit’s with the other details and the occupation of Winifred’s marriage.  Ballycorus and Barnaslingan are adjacent townlands located about 3km (~3 miles) south east of Golden Ball, both in Rathmichael civil parish.

Winifred Sutton (nee Dunne) died in 1901, informant appears to be a son ‘S. Sutton’, residence is Tivoli Avenue which is in Dún Laoghaire (previously Kingstown) which is on the coast about 9km (~5 miles) to the north east of Ballycorus.

Your Michael is shown on Griffith’s valuation leasing a house in Barnaslingan townland but no land, so fits with his occupation of bricklayer, this section of the valuation is dated 1849.

One last item for you – I found a probable match for the marriage of your Michael Sutton and Winifred Dunne, it took place in Kingstown (now Dún Laoghaire) RC parish on the 6th February 1843 (NLI RC registers), the entry is on the left page, first of the entries for February.

A residence of Shankill is noted, but not clear if this refers to the bride or groom (or both). Shankill is a village on the road from South county Dublin to Bray in County Wicklow on a road closer to the coast.  

I’ve attached extract of an 1885 map of South County Dublin to show the locations involved :

Ormond Quay where your McCaughey/Sutton couple married, Richmond Barracks, Kingstown/Dún Laoghaire, Golden Ball, Ballycorus & Shankill.

The full map is available at this link (swilson.info)
 

Thanks very much for this inforamtion Shane. I'm not sure where the information on Golden Ball came from but the other information you have found ties up with Mary Winifred Sutton's Australian Death Certificate which records her birthplace as Glencullen, father as Michael Sutton, occupation recorded as smelter, and mother Winifred Dunn. Mary Winifred's death was notified by her son George Henry who probably also provided the details. According to family stories George was very close to his mother, closer even than to his wife, and so the information is probably quite reliable. I haven't found that to always be the case with other Australian Death Certificates for Irish immigrants. Quite often the recorded information bears only a passing resemblance to the actual details.

The difference in recorded occupations for Michael Sutton, Bricklayer/Smelter, might not be in conflict. Michael might have layed insulation bricks for the smelters - not sure what they were smelting around Dublin at the time but probably copper, silver or lead which would have utilised brick lined kilns.

Shane, I've just been going through the information that forwarded in detail and it is really enlightening. The Winifred Sutton's death that you identified is obvioulsy correct as I have a note from my grandmother (1899-1999), who was a great granddaughter of Winifred Sutton, that recorded Mary Winifred Sutton died in 1901 in Kingston - presumeably meant to be Kingstown.

Given that Mary Winifred Sutton (nee Dunne) died on 24 March 1901, I had expected to find her, or at least her son, listed in the 1901 Census but I haven't been able to find anything yet.

There were Lead Mines and a refinery in Ballycorus townland, part of the process used a very long brick lined flue which ran up to the top of a nearby hill called Carrickgollogan - I've attached a photo I took from inside the flue which is used by Wikipedia. The inside of this flue had to be cleaned out every so often, a dangerous and toxic environment.

See Curious Ireland - Ballcorus Lead Mines and Lewis Topographical Dictionary of Ireland Rathmicheal parish (1837).

I solved the mystery of the youngest child - he was baptised as Daniel in June 1866, and shortly after that his birth was registered with the name Samuel - link to his baptism (see entry 15) link to his civil birth (first entry on the register page) - all the other details match, i.e. parents names, address, month & year. He could be the 'S. Sutton' present at the death of Winifred snr.

I also had a look to any members of the family on the 1901 census, concentrating initially on Ballycorus and Kingstown where Winifred snr. died, but found no promising leads. I was able to find a marriage of one of the children - Elizabeth she married on the 21st July 1879 in Ballybrack RC parish, the parish was created out of Kingstown parish. The church record of the marriage notes her parents as Michael Sutton & Winifred Dunne resident as Ballycorus, the groom is a Peter Dixon lived at Shangannagh which is on the road to Bray. See entry 487 in the Ballybrack marriage register. The civil record of the marriage shows Elizabeth's father as deceased (last entry on the page), occupation labourer. Elizabeth's occupation is shown as servant..

Elizabeth's residence on the marriage is ‘Shangannagh Terrace’ which is in Killiney and has some old large houses – see some example from Google Streetview below, probably where she worked before her marriage.

Elizabeth’s husband was Michael Dixon (I typed Peter by mistake above)… he is shown as a gardener at the time of marriage, as is his father, his address is shown as Shangannagh which presumably is a reference to the townland south of Shankill.  This area on the coast stretching from Dalkey, Killiney and Shankill had quite a number of ‘posh’ houses, which would have employed gardeners, servants etc

I located one of their children, a John William Dixon baptised in Dalkey RC parish, which is on the coast a little to the north of Killiney, here's a link to his civil birth record (entry 108).

Thanks for all your work.

I believe that I found Michael and Elizabeth Dixon in the 1901 Census living at Blakes Lane, Co Waterford. I have at least 8 children but didn't try to follow the family much further.

Daniel/Samuel Sutton is interesting. The Irish must have despised the Civil Registration process when it started. I only found out in the last couple of years that one of my great aunts, born in Tralee in 1895, similarly had two different names and dates of birth registered, one with the church and a different name and DoB with the civil authorities. I assume that before about 1900 parents were fined if they didn't register the births of their children with the civil registrar within a cetrain time frame. Those that delayed too long then just seemed to make up new DoBs that fitted with the time they actually registered the birth of the child. The regulations must have changed as I have noted several later birth registrations where there is a significant gap between the registered DoB and the date of civil registration.

I was hoping to tie down the birthplace of Winifred Mary Sutton a bit tighter but I find Irish place names very confusing even though this area doesn't seem to be as confusing as some other locations. So either the family did move around a bit or I haven't managed the different location names properly. From your Griffith's Valuation Michael leased a house/land in Barnaslingan townland, for the baptisms of several of the children the family was living in Ballycorus and it is possible that Michael worked in the lead smelter in Ballycorus. Then I have Winifred's birth place as Glencullen when her son completed her death certificate in 1911. I've since found the Golden Ball location for Winifred Mary's birth came from my grandmother who was Winifred Mary's grandaughter and who would have just turned 10 when her grandmother died. My grandmother was Winifred Mary's first grandaughter and they lived very close together so would have had a fair bit of contact - so Golden Ball is likely to be a bit more than a random memory. 

And while all these locations are close they do not seem to tie up as a single location or am I missing something.

Another aspect that interests me is the religion angle. John Joseph McCaughey was Presbyterian and his siblings also declared the same in the 1901 and 1911 Census. While Winifred Mary Sutton and the rest of her siblings were apparently baptised in the Catholic Church. From the Marriage Registraion, John and Winifred were married in the Presbyterian Church. I image that was a scandal for the Sutton family. But it probably didn't affect John and Mary too much as they were posted to India for 12 years within a couple of years of the marriage. I don't have any immigation records for the family coming to Australia so don't know what religion they subsequently declared. But their son George Henry married in the Catholic Church in Australia in 1899 - so either he or the whole family had converted to Catholicism at some stage. 

I also imagine that John Jospeh McCaughey being from Co Derry and in the British Army also didn't endear him to the Catholic Suttons from Dublin.

I don’t think it is easy to say precisely what the Sutton family felt, unless you could ask them. In spite of a general and strongly felt wish for independence, large numbers of Irish people from all parts of Ireland voluntarily joined the British Army over a period of a couple of hundred years. There were plenty of Irish regiments (some of which still exist) full of Irish soldiers. Having someone in the family who was in the army or navy was not unusual.  Joining the army or navy got you a trade, steady income and an opportunity to see the world. There was no conscription. They all joined voluntarily.

Ernest Shackleton undertook several exploration expeditions to the Antarctic. He wasn’t all that successful and nearly all his expeditions came unstuck. In 1916 his ship the Endurance was crushed by the ice and his men were stranded in Antarctica, with no hope of rescue. The Officer who was really responsible for Shackleton getting his explorers safely back was Tom Crean from Annascaul in Co. Kerry.  Crean was a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy. His navigational skills and team building kept morale up, and helped them sail a small boat to South Georgia to get help. Had they missed South Georgia, there was no way of sailing back and they would all have died. The weather was atrocious making navigation extremely difficult. Crean got them safely there. Crean had a brother who was an Inspector in the Royal Irish Constabulary. A third brother was in the IRA. They must have had interesting discussions when they all met up. That snapshot perhaps gives an example of how life was for some Irish families in those times. Tom Crean joined the navy as a result of a row with his father. Not the first teenager to have stomped off in a huff after a row with a parent.  How heroes are made? He retired from the Navy in 1920 and opened a pub in Kerry (which is still there).

https://tomcreandiscovery.com/tom-crean/

One of the strangest and interesting things I came across was that during WW2, a third of the then fledgling Irish Defence Force (Irish army, created in 1922) deserted and joined the British Army, to fight the Germans. Given that Irish citizens had fought for years to be independent, for a third of that army to desert 20 years later to join the British army makes you think a bit.  It demonstrates that the relationship between Britain and Ireland is quite complex. 

The 2 countries are in some ways joined at the hip, geographically and economically. There isn’t a family in Ireland that doesn’t have dozens of relatives living in Britain. When Ireland got independence in 1922 the country was in the doldrums economically and at any one time about a quarter of the working population was in England to work. Many never returned. Ireland really only started to pick up economically in the 1950s.  Till then Irish families were being fed from money earned in Britain. So, in my experience, whilst Irish independence was high on many a family’s agenda, automatic hostility to all things British, including joining the army, didn’t necessarily follow. 

Small numbers of Irish men and women still join the British army today because it offers an opportunity for active service, whereas with Ireland being a neutral country and not in NATO, the Irish Defence Forces normally only undertake peace keeping duties.  So there is little opportunity to “see a bit of action” as one Irish soldier described it. A few years back 2 Irish soldiers from Westport, both members of the British army, were killed in action in Afghanistan. They got a full military funeral through the streets of Westport, carried to the graveyard by their British colleagues, in uniform. All with the consent of the citizens of Westport. Discuss, as they say.  As I say, the relationship with Britain is complex at times.

Incidentally the Irish soldiers who deserted in the 1940s did not exactly return to a heroes welcome. Many were ostracized for years, till belatedly in 2013, their bravery was recognised and they were given an amnesty and pensions:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22425684#:~:text=The%20bill%20also%20grants%20an%20amnesty%20and%20immunity,to%20ensure%20the%20troops%27%20service%20is%20properly%20recognised.

Sorting out the placenames can be a little complex if you are not familiar with Ireland land divisions, or the area involved - first issue is the family residence : on the primary Valuation the Sutton property is identified as Barnaslingan townland plot 5e, on the c1840 map extract below, item 1 from OSI/GeoHive, I've marked the approximate location. The lane that their house was on is Barnaslingan Lane and the border between Barnaslingan and Ballycorus townlands runs just to one side of the road.. possibly right through the Sutton property. I've also marked the Lead Works on the north side of Ballycorus townland. With the property right on the border of the two townlands it’s easy to see how either could have been recorded or births or baptisms.

The Catholic Chapel  your Sutton family most likely attended was in Glencullen, see red marker ‘A’ on the map extract – item 2 from Google maps, this was one of the Chapels for the parish of Sandyford or to give it's full title 'Sandyford and Glencullen'. That could account for the mention of Glencullen on some later records - likely where the family attended mass and possibly where the children were baptised, although some baptisms may have been at the 'Parish Church' at Sandyford - a bit further away to the north see green marker ‘B’. The blue area marked on this map shows approximately the area covered by map 1.

Kiltiernan village was very spread out, still is quite dispersed, the most defining feature was the Pub at Golden Ball which is really part of the village of Kiltiernan. It's located at the junction of the Enniskerry Road and Glenamuck Road. For many years the name of the Pub was the Golden Ball, although it has changed a couple of times recently, think it is called Farmer Brown's now, it's still referred to by many as the Golden Ball. The County Dublin directory in Thom’s 1848 doesn't have a section for Kiltiernan but does have one for Golden Ball so it seems Golden Ball was the more prominent of the two. The Golden Ball listing includes residences in Kiltiernan, Golden Ball, Carrickmines, Kilgobbin etc, and mentions the Lead Mines. Extract below..item 3.

My reading of the clues we have discovered is that the Sutton property was on Barnalignan Lane, on the boundary of the townlands of Ballycorus & Barnaslingan and not far fro the lead works, their Catholic Chapel was Glencullen, which they may have referred to as their parish, the major location nearby was Golden Ball - which was a postal delivery stop, so well known (these days the nearest delivery or sorting post office is often part of the postal address).

Shane thanks for that very detailed and useful analysis of the Sutton family likely residence. It ties together locations that I could never have done with my very limited local knowledge.

I have come across the story of Tom Crean previously. I found out a couple of years ago that his two daughters married two siblings that were cousins of my grandfather.

Yes you are right to remind me not to make assumptions about the reactions of families when I have no basis. I guess I was just transposing what I knew from my own Irish ancestors. One of my great aunts, born in Tralee, married a solider in the British army in 1919 while he was stationed in Tralee. Her father disowned her and they moved to England and lived their lives there. My father corresponded with their children, who were his cousins, for most of their lives.

I'm still trying to reconcile how the grandchildren of John Joseph McCaughey in Australia, which included my grandmother, never seemed to mention their McCahon cousins and second cousins that were descendants of John's multiple siblings who also migrated to SE Queensland. The McCaugheys of my grandmother's generation were all very close and I knew most of their grandchildren.

Hello there,

I am brand new to the community and am fascinated by this conversation as I may have a lead on the Suttons for you.

I am researching my paternal great grandfather, John Joseph Sutton.

John Joseph joined the 105th in Ashton-under-Lyne and had a very long career in the KOYLIs/Guernsey LI and later as a territorial during the Great War in the 7th Lancs and Royal Defence Force (finishing as a colour sergeant).

In his original attestation in December 1880 he gives his age as 18y 7m, birthplace as Dublin and his next of kin as "Mother, Winifred, Sandyford, Dublin". Later in the 1911 census he gives his birthplace as Ballycorus.

I have been unable to find him in the Dublin records and have covered some of the same ground as in Shane's list, without success.

Give the circumstances of the Suttons in Ballycorus/Sandyford, do you think John Joseph is the son of your Michael and Winifred?

with the warmest regards

Damian Sutton