Hugh Sloan and Agnes Scott, Donaghadee

Leigh,

The 1867 Scottish marriage certificate tells you that both Hugh Sloan & Agnes Scott were dead by that date. Also that Hugh had been an agricultural labourer. Also that Margret married in the Church of Scotland. Since tradition was to marry in the bride’s church she was apparently Presbyterian.

Death registration only started in Ireland in 1864. I searched 1864 -1867 for deaths for Hugh and Agnes in the Newtownards registration area (which includes Donaghadee). None for Hugh. Only 1 Agnes (1866 aged 88, so too old). So it looks as though both died pre 1864, or had left Ireland, which may make them hard to trace. Presbyterians rarely kept burial records and labourers rarely could afford a gravestone.

There are a number of Presbyterian churches in the Donaghadee area. The only ones with baptism records for the 1840s are  Donaghadee 1st (they start 1793) & Millisle (they start 1773). Copies of both are in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast.

Ann Jane’s marriage was also in a Presbyterian church so that tends to confirm the family denomination.

Another marriage that might involve the same Sloan family is this (couple lived in Ballymiscaw):

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1850/09384/5398824.pdf

There are unlikely to be many other records that list Hugh or Agnes in Ireland.

I note that some trees on Ancestry have this Sloan family in the 1851 & 1861 Scottish censuses as living in Barony, Glasgow. Margaret is a daughter in 1851, and step-daughter in the 1861 suggesting a remarriage.  I can’t see the family in those censuses though on Scotlandspeople, but hopefully the tree owners will have the details.

Hello Leigh,

The 1863 marriage record for Francis Nelson and Ann Jane Sloan shows they were married in the Bangor Road Presbyterian Church, Holywood, County Down. If Ann is Margaret’s sister, there is the likelihood that Margaret and her family belonged to the Presbyterian Church.

There will not be an 1845 civil birth record for Margaret, or a civil marriage record for her parents, Civil registration began in Ireland in April of 1845, but at this time only Protestant and civil marriages were recorded by the government.

Civil registration of births, marriages, and deaths for all religious denominations were recorded by the government beginning in 1864.

This means for the Hugh Sloan and Agnes Scott marriage, and the baptism of their daughter Margaret, you would have to see if there are baptism and church marriage records in the Presbyterian Church they belonged to in, or near, Donaghadee.

According to the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland’s online, “A Guide To Church Records,” there were several Presbyterian churches that served parishioners in the Civil Parish of Donaghadee. But not all of these churches have records that go back to the 1840s or years prior to that.

Most of the Presbyterian Church records noted below are available at the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland, abbreviated as (PRONI). A few are available at the Presbyterian Historical Society:

THE BALLYCOPELAND PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

The Guide To Church Records shows that the baptisms in the Ballycopeland Presbyterian Church, Civil Parish of Donaghadee, are available for the years 1906 to 1941, though there are some early baptism records for Ballycopeland for the years 1773 to 1818. The baptisms from 1773 to 1818 are available at the Presbyterian Historical Society.

Ballycopeland marriages are extent from 1903 to 1906.

THE BALLYFRENIS PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

Also in the Donaghadee parish is the Ballyfrenis Presbyterian Church, with baptism records from 1862 to 1917, and marriage records from 1864 to 1901.

THE CARROWDORE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

The Carrowdore Presbyterian Church baptism records begin in 1843 and are available to 1940. Carrowdore marriages are available for 1843 and 1844. There is a gap in the marriage registers when they pick up again in 1864 and continue to 1907.

The Presbyterian Historical Society holds Carrowdore marriages for the years 1845 to 1864.

THE 1ST DONAGHADEE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

The 1st Donaghadee Presbyterian Church baptisms are available at PRONI from 1793 to 1950; marriages are available from 1805 to 1806, and from 1813 to 1836.

Index of baptisms for the 1st Donaghadee Presbyterian Church cover the years 1793 to 1921, and index of marriages from 1805­1936.

THE 2ND DONAGHDAHEE/SHORE STREET PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

There is also the 2nd Donaghadee Presbyterian Church, which today is called the Shore Street Presbyterian Church, but baptisms in this church do not begin until 1849, which would have been too late to have recorded Margaret Sloan’s baptism.

Marriages for the Shore Street Presbyterian Church commence in 1850, which would have been too late to have recorded the marriage for Hugh Sloan and Agnes Scott.

MILLISLE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

Millisle baptisms cover years 1773 to 1941, and marriages from 1845 to 1936.
____

For a full list of both Catholic and Protestant Church parish registers available at PRONI for the 9 counties of the Province of Ulster, go to the “A Guide To Church Records” link at: https://tinyurl.com/6988f5b3

The majority of the Presbyterian Church records are not online. You either have to go to PRONI in Belfast and search the baptism and marriage records yourself, or you can engage PRONI’s fee paying service to look for records you are interested in. There is also an enquiry service which provides free advice and guidance service about the records held at PRONI.

For more information about PRONI’s fee paying and enquiry services go to: https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/proni-enquiry-service

The Presbyterian Historical Society also has a fee-paying service for records not held anywhere else. The Presbyterian Historical Society however, will not undertake a comprehensive genealogical project. For more information about the fee-paying/enquiry service, go to:
https://www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com/our-services/enquiry-service/

Do you have a copy of Margaret Sloan’s 1845 baptism record to see which church she was baptized in? I’m not a certain that she was even baptized in a Presbyterian Church, as I was going by the possibility that Ann Jane Sloan may have been her sister, and that Ann Jane Sloan and Francis Nelson were married in the Bangor Road, Holywood, Presbyterian Church.

If your Sloan and Scott ancestors were Presbyterian it may be an undertaking to find out which church Hugh Sloan and Ann Scott were married in, and where their daughter Margaret was baptized, if you don’t already know.

As you can see from the list of Presbyterian Churches in or near Donaghadee, there are several. If you do not live near PRONI in Belfast, it could also be quite an expense to engage the fee service at PRONI to look for the marriage of Hugh Sloan and Agnes Scott and the baptism of their daughter Margaret.

THE CHURCH LOCATIONS

If your ancestors lived in Donaghadee Town, they may have attended one of two of the churches there, either the 1st Presbyterian Church, or the Shore Street Presbyterian Church.

The 1st Presbyterian Church is located at 19 High Street, though it is not labeled on the Google Map at: https://tinyurl.com/2cbb9h7w

For a Google Street View of the 1st Presbyterian Church, High Street, Donaghadee, go to: https://tinyurl.com/2nx6xyf7

A brief history of the 1st Presbyterian Church shows it was constructed in the year 1824, replacing the thatched meeting house where worship had taken place the previous125 years. See: https://www.firstdonaghadee.org.uk/who-we-are/

The other Presbyterian Church in Donaghadee is the Shore Street Presbyterian Church, actually located in Warren Street, which joins Shore Street. See the location of the church from the Google Map at:
https://tinyurl.com/4hkcbwc9

For a Google Street View of the Shore Street Presbyterian Church, go to: https://tinyurl.com/472x5bv8

For an Ordnance Survey Map of Donaghadee from the 1837 to 1842 time period, see the attachment. The map is from the GeoHive website.

In going over Google Maps looking for the other four Presbyterian Church Congregations listed in the PRONI parish church registers noted earlier, I found that the four appear to have been consolidated into two churches.

For example, a Google Map shows the location of the Millisle and Ballycopeland Presbyterian Church Hall, located 2.7 miles south of Donaghadee by the shortest route. See the map at: https://tinyurl.com/d8emftey

For a Google Street View of the Millisle and Ballycopeland Presbyterian Church Hall, see: https://tinyurl.com/4mmbhx9f

The Millisle and Ballycopeland Presbyterian Church homepage can be accessed at:
https://sites.google.com/site/millisleandbally/Home

For a history of the Millisle and Ballycopeland Presbyterian Church, go to:
https://sites.google.com/site/millisleandbally/church-history

Google Maps also shows that the Carrowdore and Ballyfrenis Presbyterian Church had been consolidated, and is located in Carrowdore, 5.5 miles south of Donaghadee by the shortest route passing through Millisle: https://tinyurl.com/6w2n7sey

A Google Street View of the Carrowdore and Ballyfrenis Presbyterian Church in the Church Road, Carrowdore, can be accessed at: https://tinyurl.com/47t7w6uw

GRIFFITHS VALUATION

I next wanted to see if Hugh Sloan or Agnes Sloan had been recorded in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation. I wanted to see if Hugh or Agnes had been recorded in any townland within the Donaghadee Civil Parish, but especially in Donaghadee Town.

Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for the Civil Parish of Donaghadee was completed by the year 1863.

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent on Gale Day for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the Ask About Ireland website link at:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

I didn’t find a Hugh or Agnes Sloan recorded in Griffiths Valuation anywhere in the Civil Parish of Donaghadee. Griffiths Valuation however, shows two people recorded in the town of Donaghadee with the last name of Sloan. These were Anne J. Sloan of Shore Street, and John Sloan of New Street.

Anne leased her property from a Mrs. Reid. John Sloan leased his property from Daniel Delacherios.

The Griffiths Valuation indexes for Ann and John Sloan in Donaghadee Town are below:

Griffith's Valuation Record Information

Tenant
Family Name 1 SLOAN
Forename 1 ANNE J.

Landlord
Family Name 2 REID
Forename 2
Prefix MRS

Location
County DOWN
Barony ARDS, LOWER
Union NEWTOWN ARDS

Parish DONAGHADEE

Townland DONAGHADEE, TOWNPARKS OF
Place Name SHORE STREET

Place Type OTHER
Publication Details
Position on Page 31
Printing Date 1863
Act 15&16
Sheet Number
Map Reference 99 10
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Griffith's Valuation Record Information

Tenant
Family Name 1 SLOAN
Forename 1 JOHN

Landlord
Family Name 2 DELACHEROIS
Forename 2 DANIEL

Location
County DOWN
Barony ARDS, LOWER
Union NEWTOWN ARDS

Parish DONAGHADEE

Townland DONAGHADEE, TOWNPARKS OF
Place Name NEW STREET

Place Type OTHER
Publication Details
Position on Page 51
Printing Date 1863
Act 15&16
Sheet Number
Map Reference 99 9
____

When looking for Hugh and Agnes Sloan in Griffiths Valuation, I found that a Hugh Sloan leased property in the townland of Holywood, where Anne Jane Sloan and Francis Nelson were married in 1863.

Hugh Sloan leased his property from a landlord named Thomas Killips in Killips’ Court, Holywood. Holywood was in the Civil Parish of Holywood. Griffiths Valuation for the Holywood Civil Parish was completed by 1861.

See the Griffiths Valuation index for Hugh Sloan below:

Griffith's Valuation Record Information

Tenant

Family Name 1 SLOAN
Forename 1 HUGH

Landlord
Family Name 2 KILLIPS
Forename 2 THOMAS

Location
County DOWN
Barony CASTLEREAGH, LOWER
Union BELFAST

Parish HOLYWOOD

Townland HOLYWOOD
Place Name KILLIPS' COURT
Town HOLYWOOD

Place Type OTHER
Publication Details
Position on Page 42
Printing Date 1861
Act 15&16
Sheet Number
Map Reference 11;-
____

Hugh Sloan being recorded in Griffiths Valuation in Holywood, brought me back again to the marriage record for Anne Jane Sloan and Francis Nelson. I’ve attached a copy of the original 1863 marriage record to this reply for quick access. The marriage record is from the free irishgenealogy.ie website.

Anne and Francis were married in Holywood, but at the time of marriage, their residence is recorded as Donaghadee. The question is why? A Google Map shows that Holywood and Donaghadee are 14 miles apart, clear across the northern portion of County Down by the shortest modern-day route. See: https://tinyurl.com/kpn4jah9

According to the FamilySearch website, it was “common practice” for Presbyterian marriages to take place in the bri
de’s home. See: https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Ireland_Presbyterian_Church_Records

Could Holywood originally have been Anne’s hometown?

But the other question, one which you have is, were Anne Sloan and Margaret Sloan sisters? If not, it is a coincidence that they had a father named Hugh Sloan.

Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

SOURCES

Public Records Office of Northern Ireland: “A Guide To Church Records."
Presbyterian Historical Society
Google Maps
Google Street Views
https://www.firstdonaghadee.org.uk/who-we-are/
GeoHive: Ordnance Survey Map of Donaghadee
Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation
irishgenealogy.ie
FamilySearch

Thank you so much Elwyn and Dave for the leads and information.
 

I do not have the baptism record for Margaret so I'm not sure which church in Donaghadee it was. But the woman who found it for me called it the Donaghadee parish church. She helped me when things were closed down so she couldn't get a picture but I will try to contact her again and find out. In the meantime I will check out all the other resources you listed. 
 

I too am not sure about Ann and Margaret being sisters but the reason I thought maybe they were was because of Ann being from Donaghadee. Thank you again.
 

Leigh,

Parish church (in Ireland) normally means either RC or Church of Ireland. The RC church for Donaghadee only has records from 1864 onwards so in this case it must be Church of Ireland. Here are details of the records Donaghadee COI has, taken from the PRONI guide:

Baptisms, 1771-1893; marriages, 1772-1844; burials, 1771-86 and 1817-41; vestry minutes, 1779-1870; list of parishioners, 1797.

The records have been indexed and there’s a copy of that index in PRONI.

Hello Leigh,

Many thanks for your reply.

The religious denomination of the parish church where Margaret was baptized will be important for further research, as the church may also have the marriage record for Margaret’s parents, Hugh Sloan and Agnes Scott. If the parish registers go back far enough in time, there is the possibility that the baptism records for Hugh and Agnes may have also been recorded in the same church if their families had belonged to that congregation.

Thank you again for writing.

Dave

Hello again Dave and Elwyn,

I have finally had a chance to sit down and check out all the links you have so helpfully included above, and I'm stuck. 

I checked back at the email from the woman who helped me with Margaret Sloan's baptism record (hasn't responded at this point, so I may have lost that contact) and the original email says "Margaret was baptised in Donaghadee Parish Church on 14 September 1845, There are no other children for Hugh and Agnes baptised in Donaghadee Parish Church and they did not marry there. I've also checked 1st Pres Church, Shore St. Pres Church and Millisle and Ballycopeland Pres Church records. There are other Sloans but none that can be confirmed as the same family."

Elwyn, you mentioned that these records are probably from the Church of Ireland and are available on PRONI. I've spent some time on the PRONI website, but am still uncertain if I can view their indexed records. Dave, you gave me a lot of info about PRONI helping me find church records, but I'm not sure if I can look them up myself. 

If that is possible, could one of you point me in the right direction? I've watched a youtube video about searching the ecatalogue and am still quite confused about how their records are organized and how to find the baptism record from the correct church.

Another question: if Margaret Sloan and Ann Jane Sloan are married in 2 separate churches, is it VERY unlikely that they are sisters? 

Thank you again for your help!

Leigh

PS - I am in the US. I would love to someday visit Ireland, but that is not in the cards anytime soon.

Leigh,

If Agnes was baptised in Donaghadee parish church that means, in this case, she was Church of Ireland. (It could also mean RC but since that RC parish only has records from 1864 onwards, it’s safe to assume they are not the records the baptism was found in).

Church of Ireland is Anglican/Episcopalian. In Scotland that’s the Episcopalian church.  

I have seen sisters marrying in different denominations before so it’s not a universal rule that they always stayed the same denomination.  But it certainly wouldn’t be routine. (Some Presbyterians did baptise their children in the Church of Ireland at one time. I have known that happen, but it was usually in earlier years when the last of the Papal Laws were still around. Also it tended to be wealthier families who were worried about being disinherited. I doubt it was common with labourers around Donaghadee).

In this case both Margaret & Ann married in the same denomination (ie Presbyterian) so at least that is not against them being sisters. The Church of Scotland is Presbyterian, in case that wasn’t apparent.

Regarding PRONi's records, the baptism, marriage and burial records are not on-line. You need to go in person. The on-line catalogue tells you what they have got, ie which churches and years but the records themselves are mostly on microfilm which you have to load on to a microfilm reader in PRONI. If you are unable to go yourself, you could employ a researcher. Researchers in the PRONI area: http://sgni.net

Some churches records are on the rootsireland site (subscription) but many are not.

Donaghadee’s Church of Ireland records go back to 1771. My guide to Church of Ireland records says that rootsireland has coverage of Donaghadee for some years. It doesn’t say which years. 

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so it doesn’t follow that the church where Hugh & Agnes baptised their daughter Margaret is the same one they married in. Bride could be from a different parish or a different denomination eg Presbyterian. Labourers often moved about a bit to follow the available work. That could be a factor with this couple too and might explain why there are no other children in that church’s baptism records.

Thank you Elwyn,

That answers a lot of my questions, I've submitted a request to PRONI so maybe they can help me. 

I really appreciate all your help.

Leigh