Ross

Keith,

The tithe applotment records for Killesher in 1828 list just one Ross household in the parish. That was Joseph Ross in Gortnakelly (more commonly Gortnacally). So possibly that’s your family. Gortnacally is around Florencecourt village. Just outside the exit to Florencecourt National Trust estate.

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/fermanagh/tithe-applotment-books/paris…

No Ross households there in Griffiths Valuation in 1862, so suspect Joseph and Bridget were both dead by then. I searched for death certificates for them 1864 onwards (which is when death registration started) but did not find any. So that also points to death pre 1864. You might find their burials in Killesher’s burial records.

Perhaps John & Catherine were staying with her family in 1861? There was a Peter and Charles Duffy farming in Aghnahoo, in Killesher. Possibly they might be her relations. Aghnahoo is up on Cuilcagh mountain near Marble Arch caves.

No Ross households there in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Florencecour…

There was 1 Ross household in Aghnahoo:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Killesher/Ag…

If the Aghnahoo family is Catherine’s then they were RC. The RC baptism records for Killesher only start in 1855 so you won’t find her baptism. Nor their marriage if they married in her church, though I suspect at that period, if it was a mixed marriage, they probably married in the Church of Ireland.

Statutory birth registration only started in Ireland in 1864 so to find a birth in 1861 you need to rely on church baptism records. You haven’t said what denomination your family was. I looked at the 1901 census of Fermanagh and most of the Ross households were Church of Ireland, so I’ll assume yours were too. Killesher Church of Ireland records start in 1798. They are not on-line anywhere, so far as I am aware but there is a copy in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. A personal visit is required to view them.

The RC records for Killesher are on-line. I searched them for William’s baptism in June 1861. He is not there. However the records for July 1861 appear to be missing and so I can’t say for certain he wasn’t baptised there.

https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634868#page/17/mode/1up

Hi Elwyn

thank you for the very informative answer. Regarding denomination I've seen the English records for William's marriage and subsequent baptism and they are Protestant.

It looks as though a visit to PRONI records needs to be planned for when lockdown has eased.

regards 

Keith 

Hi Elwyn

A follow up. I 've managed to trace a baptism for William Ross in the RC Killesher records. It is 16th June 1860 i.e. a year earlier than I'd first thought. There are two confusing trails,

Firstly This is an RC record whereas all the later records in England are Protestant e.g William's marriage and children's baptisms, possibly a mixed marriage.

Second mis-step was from the 1871 England census William is listed as aged 10 = birth 1861 = WRONG as the census was in April i.e. before his 1861 birthday, when he would become 11 years old.

At present I can't trace the family in England in the 1861 census, but visible from 1871 onwards. So i'm wondering if they spent sometime in Ireland after William's birth.

If his mother is Catherine Duffy dob 1823 then at her son's birth she'd have been 37 years old in 1860 which seems quite old. Given the 1860 baptism is RC I'm hoping the marriage was also and hopefully may have been after1855, if that's when the records began in Killesher.

Are you able to give me any pointers as to how I could search the Killesher marriage records from 1855 or is this impractical?

Regards

Keith

Keith,

Yes this does look to be a mixed marriage. (The surnames would suggest that). I wouldn’t worry too much about inaccuracies in ages in the censuses. Irish people didn’t celebrate birthdays in the 1800s and often didn’t know exactly how old they were (or how old their children were). Many ages are just guesses. Errors are common, and by the time a person was in their 70s an error of 10 years or more was quite common.

The method for searching for an RC marriage is the same as searching for a baptism (which you evidently were successful with). Go to the Killesher records on the nli site and search through them. Normally the marriages and baptism are kept in separate registers but you will probably have noticed that the two are in the one register in Killesher (around 1860 anyway). I’d start in June 1860 and work backwards from that.

https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634868#page/14/mode/1up

If John Ross was born Church of Ireland , then he’ll have had to be baptised into the RC faith. So you should find an adult baptism for him, typically a month before the marriage.

If there’s no sign of the marriage in the RC registers then I’d search the Church of Ireland records but as I mentioned previously they are not on-line yet. So a trip to PRONI is required to view them.

Keith, not sure if this is your Ross family but, Familysearch does have an 1841 census record for England and Wales and it lists a John Ross and Catherine Ross but both are reportedly 20 yrs of age (estimated) and from Ireland. This appears in Liverpool Lancashire.  They also have a daughter Mary age 1 yr.  Could it be they married around 1840.  It puts a different spin on the age concern you raised. They were living with the  Shacklady family on Naylor St.  Perhaps they had not found their way to London yet.  It gives you a different time span to work with unless you are certain of your dates.  Makes William’s birth in 1861 a bit more realistic.  Mark

Keith, I do see an 1871 England and Wales census showing John and Catherine in London with sons Joseph and William (ages 54, 46, 14 & 10 respectively).  If those ages are correct, John would have been born 1817 and Catherine in 1825.   It does say they were born in Cty Fermanagh Ireland.  This census reflects London White Chapel, St Mary, Stepney Middlesex.  Disregard my last post.   Mark

Keith- one other possible connection.  There is a record for a William Ross born to Joseph and Bridget Ross, all of Ireland.  William emigrated to the US and lived for 37yrs on 152 Douglass St in NEw York City.  He died at age 74 on the 18th of February 1899.  Perhaps his parents came as well.  I am still looking.  But if he left family in NYC and you can trace them, perhaps Ydna testing (done through Family Tree DNA) would confirm the relationship.  William is buried in Holy Cross Cemetery Brooklyn, NY.  

Keith, there is a Ross family surname project at Family Tree DNA with nearly 700 members.  I just checked.  I joined FTDNA after hitting a brick wall in Ireland (same time span as yours 1780).  I posted in this site in 2016.  In 2019, I received a reply to my post from a Storey in Ireland.  He agreed to take the Ydna test and we matched.  I now know from where in Ireland my line settled.  I am actively working with this distant relative to trace his family to a point where we share a common ancestor.  Any way. The surname project may be of some help to you.

Keith, sorry to be inundating you with information.  My hope is that you might pick up a clue.  First regarding the William Ross mentioned in my last post, he does appear in the US 1850 NYC census and he had quite a large family.  This William may have been the brother to your John.   Secondly, I find a record for Bridget Ross, widow, living with her younger sister, Ann Summers, in St Helier, Jersey Channel Islands.  Both were reportedly born in Ireland.   This is from the 1851 England and Wales Census.  Bridget was reportedly 63 yrs of age placing her birth date circa 1788. If it is your Bridget, then Joseph was deceased by this time.

Bridget also appears in the 1861 England Wales census living in the same location age reported as 74 yrs and with an estimated birth date of 1787 in Ireland.

And finally, 1851 England and Wales Census has a John Ross and wife Katherine in St George in the East Middelsex.  They have a daughter Ann aged 1yr.  Both John and Katherine were born in Ireland (est 1812 & 1823 respectively).  Ann was reportedly born in Old Town.   John’s reported profession is a police constable.

Hi Mark

Thanks for the replies, they've been both informative and educational and given me plenty of ways forwards.

I only started tracing my family history 3 weeks ago and at that time had no idea there was any Irish connection! I only knew back to my grandfather and that's all from London.

I know that both John Ross and his son William Ross were constables in the London Metropolitan Police for many years and both earned pensions, from which I've obtained good info. John Ross served from 2nd May 1842 (frustratingly after the 1841 census) and served until 15th August 1857 when he retired with the medical condition of rheumatism. His son William Ross served from 13th May 1878 to 15th July 1907, with a break in the middle. This info makes using the various English census records easier to track both of them.

I've also seen the Liverpool info but not sure this is the same family as the Liverpool trail seems to continue in later census etc. But still worth keeping in mind when trying to understand where John Ross was before 1842.

The RC Killesher baptism record I've found for William Ross ties in with his dob on the police data. 16th June 1860.

As John and Catherine Ross were in London from 1842 it indicates they returned to Ireland before William was born, so it must have been after John's retirement in August 1857. Also so far no trace of them in the 1861 England census, but good info from 1871 onwards. So quite a long period to try to track their whereabouts.

I've a good trail of both John and William in England in London and later into Essex, including William's son, another William and my Dad. It looks as though John Ross died in 1871, after the census of that year, in London. This would make his son William only 11, so an interesting point of where was his mother Catherine and brother Joseph whilst they were still young. Quite clear from 1881 onwards where Catherine is living with William and described as a widow.

The 1700 and 1800 centuries are an interesting challenge for records, but I guess that makes it all the more worthwhile when a clue works out.

Your info on the US trail is helpful. I hadn't given any thought to John Ross having siblings. The parent names of Josepth and Bridget Ross come from his (John's) police data and I've so far drawn a blank on finding anything relating to them. So the US trail sounds promising, also the Jersey Channel Islands possibility.

I haven't come across FTDNA before so I'll follow this up. I have submitted my DNA to Ancestry but the results won't be available for around another 8 weeks.

Thanks again for all the info you've given me, its appreciated.

Regards

Keith

Keith,you can certainly load your Ancestry.com results at Family Tree DNA(FTDNA).  Just keep in mind that the Ancestry test is only an autosomal dna test.  It represents your maternal and paternal ancestorial contributions going back just 5 generations. It does not cover the Y chromosome in the test.  So, if you take a Y test at FTDNA and can trace William Ross( NYC) relations to more current and reach out to see if one or more male Ross descendants would also test, you may get a confirmation concerning the Joseph and Bridget connection in the absence of actual records.  You never know, there may already be representatives from that family in the Ross surname project at FTDNA.  Your autosomal DNA may also produce other matches that share a connection with that part of the Ross family.  Wishing you good hunting.  If I can be of help, just say the word.  Mark

Keith- the 1841 census has Ann Summers (sister to Bridget) living in Jersey Channel Islands with two daughters;  Mary age 12 and Bridget age 10 ( connection here ?) along with Bernard Summers age 55.

Hello from California!

I realize that his does not pertain to your search but I thought, perhaps, that we could share our quest.

Three of my distant relatives lived in Clones Parish, Fermanagh, during the late eighteenth century. I am seeking more information about their lives. Below is all that I know about these three individuals:

1. Thomas Chambers died in Clones Parish in 1895 at age 91 (b~1804). He lived in Tattinbarr (Griffith Valuation). He was a brother of Martha Chambers as listed in his will, and, perhaps, John Chambers.
2. Martha Chambers died in Roslea (Rosslea) in 1898 at age 86 (born ~ 1812). She lived in Roslea (Griffith’s Valuation) She was a sister of Thomas Chambers (No. 1 above).
3. John Chambers died in Roslea or Tattinbarr in 1876 at age 75 (born ~ 1801). John lived in Rosslea and Tattinbarr (Griffith’s Valuation). He most likely was a brother of Thomas (No. 1 and Martha, No 2 above) as they are frequently mention together in Griffith’s. This is all that I know about John.

Thomas and Martha Chambers were the “first cousins” of Jane Chambers, my distant aunt, who arrived in Brooklyn, New York on 6 January 1851 from Ireland via Liverpool. Jane died on 23 February 1888 in Brooklyn. In her will, she identified Thomas and Martha as living in Roslea, Fermanagh. The Brooklyn Court did their due diligence and never heard back  from Fermanagh.

I would like to know more about the three individuals named above such as the names of their parents, where they were born, their religious affiliation, where they were buried, and anything else that would help me learn more about my U.S. kin.

When Jane arrived in January 1851 aboard packet ship Joseph Walker, she was accompanied by David Chambers, a farmer, age 35, Elizabeth Chambers, age 17, a farmer, Sarah Chambers, age 16, a farmer, and Thomas Chambers, age 35 also a farmer. I know all about their lives one they arrived in Brooklyn, where they lived, who they married and when they died. I also know of another David Chambers who died in Brooklyn in 1857 at age 95. His newspaper obituary stated the he was “From Monaghan.” I know nothing more about him except that he lived with the younger David’s in laws in Brooklyn. The younger David, my fourth great grandfather died in 1854. The difference in ages of the two David’s raises question as to their relationship and to the other individuals mention above

Any advice, suggestions or other information that you could provide to help me resolve my family’s history would be greatly appreciated.

George J. Chambers

Westminster, California

George,

You can view John Chambers death certificate on-line on the GRONI site. He died 14.10.1876 and the place of registration is Lisnaskea. You may find that his relationship to Thomas & Martha will be confirmed by the informant. You can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

The informant for Thomas & Martha’s deaths was Edward Nelson. This looks to be him in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Rosslea/Tatt…

Edward Nelson acquired the Chambers farm in 1899 (according to the Valuation revision records) but was replaced by Thomas Hazzelet in 1901. So evidently Martha left her farm to Edward. Perhaps he was a distant relation?

Looking at the Chambers households in Fermanagh in the 1901 census, the majority were Church of Ireland so I’d expect that your family were too. The main parish church is in Clones and has records as follows:

Baptisms, 1682-1873; marriages, 1682-1788 and 1792-1912; burials, 1682-1704, 1709, 1722-5, 1733-4 and 1808-1901.

There’s a copy of those records in PRONI, the public record office in Belfast. You may get their parents names from those baptism records. There are 2 other churches in the parish, both near Clones. Aghadrumsee has records for Baptisms, marriages and burials, 1829-1935. Clogh has: Baptisms, 1811-91; marriages, 1792-1910; burials, 1810-1986. Again there are copies of these records in PRONI.

Looking at Co Monaghan, the majority of Chambers there were Presbyterian. So there’s a possibility your family might have been of that denomination. If so, there’s a number of churches in the area. The only one with records for the early 1800s is Stonebridge which start in 1819. Copy in PRONI.

I looked in the tithe applotment records for Tattinbar for 1832 and there was no Chambers farm there then, so it looks as though Thomas acquired it sometime between 1832 and Griffiths Valuation in 1862.

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp

John & Thomas are both listed in Roslea in the tithes so it looks as though they had farms there at that time.

I can’t help you with locating where the Chambers were buried. There’s no requirement to record where someone is buried and it’s not always the most obvious place. Some families had plots in graveyards where they used to live and so you often have to search around. Roslea is just on the border with Co. Monaghan and with some members of the family reportedly being from that county, it’s possible that there might be a burial ground in Monaghan rather than Fermanagh. You might need to ask locally in Roslea.

Keith & George - two thoughts come to mind:   1. Don’t lose sight of Elwyn’s advise above concerning how the Irish did not celebrate birthdays and quite often had no idea how old they were or in what year they were born.  This will cause a great deal of conflict with various records for perhaps the same person.  It means you cannot rely on quoted ages.  2nd.   This goes back to a 2016 post from me in this site.  Elwyn was once again very helpful.  Records are kept at the parish level.  In my case, I was also focused on the parish of Clones.   As Elwyn told me, the Clones Parish covered territory in both the Counties of Monaghan and Fermanagh.   A person could have lived in Cty Fermanagh but his or her baptismal record is in Clones, Cty Monaghan.   I should note there are huge gaps in the records and it seems to be most acute for the period of 1600-1800.  You may never find the records you are seeking.   Once I heard from a Storey relative ( in response to my post), in Cty Fermanagh ( and he advised me our family line had been in Clones Parish for hundreds of years), I immediately asked him if he would take not only a Ydna test but also an autosomal dna test.   The y confirmed we are absolutely genetically connected.  Since my brickwall is from 1780 in Clones Parish, I set about tracing my newly found relative’s line.  The autosomal dna allowed me to confirm my Genealogical trace is correct . He has autosomal matches to thousands.  But what I did is if I found his Storey ancestor married a “Gregg”, for example, and I know how many generations back from my match, then I would hope to find 4th to 5th cousins as a match to him with the “Gregg surname or as one of their identified ancestors.   Regarding a y dna test,With two sets of paternal tests from the same lines ( my match and his brother) we can then age their private mutations and it will tell us when their line separated from our common ancestor.  Again, because records are not available, I have a likely name of their-ancestor that would be the brother to mine in 1780.  If the age estimate holds true, I will take it as a match and then I have two potential candidates identified as the link to our (1780 brothers) .  It is painstaking  but I would highly recommend dna testing especially through Family Tree DNA as they are the only provider that does all dna testing ( y, Mtdna and autosomal).        George,  do you know for certain that Martha and Thomas were siblings and that they were first cousins to Jane?   Thomas identified Martha as his beneficiary but did not use the word sister nor wife ( there is a record of a Thomas married to a Martha).  Do you know of your David’s parents?  I am afraid you are confronting the same issue as most-  multiple generations of siblings naming their children after parents and one another.

I will dig in a little deeper soon.

Elwin,

Thank you for replying to my request. 

In Thomas Chambers' will, dated 15 June 1892, he identified Martha Chambers as "my only surviving sister Martha." This implies, perhaps, that there were other sisters. He also referred to his lands and houses in both Tatenbar (sic) and Roslea. 

I will look deeper into Edward Nelson who was the informant on Thomas' and Margarter's death.

I have no information regarding their religious affliation, if any.

George