Patrick Allen

Hi Patricia

I am the Parish Liaison for Kildare Town.  I'd be glad to have a look into this for you.  Can you leave it with me for a couple of days and I will get back to you.  Probably with more questions than answers!  But I hope I can help.

All the best for now.

Linda

Kildare Town Liaison

Hello again

I found a some information that might be of interest.  I think the following ties in nicely with your details above and it would be worth following up on these records.

From Ancestry.co.uk - Two Baptism records

1. Jacobus Allen, b 04/04/1869, bap. 18/04/1869, Parish of St Patrick, (f) Patricii Allen (m) Letitia Mccready

2. Rosa Allen, b 01/01/1875, bap. 17/01/1875, Parish of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, (f) Patritii Allen (m) Letitia Mccready

Also from Ancestry.co.uk - Two Marriage records

1. Patrick Allen married 23/09/1862 to Letitia Mcneady (mispelt on system), parish of St Patrick

Parents - Frank and Rose Allen, both deceased

Parents - Thos and Anna McCready, both deceased

Address of Patrick and Letitia = 6 Head Street

Witnesses: John McCarton, Hill Street and Bridget Brennan (hard to read second name)

2. John McCarton married 23/09/1862 to Bridget Brennan, both of Hill Street

Parents - Michael and Eliza McCarton, Ireland

Parents - Bryan and Margaret Brennan, Ireland

Witnesses: Patrick Allen (this name was scratched out and then John McCarton written above it), address 6 Head Street.  Also, Mary Murphy, Ashly Street (hard to read address here).

These 2 marriages took place in the same church on the same day.  It must have been a double wedding of sorts.  There is a Head Street and Hill Street in Liverpool and both are very close to each other and St Patrick's Chapel.  Google 'where is head street liverpool' to see them on a map.

Finally I found the following marriage record on the FreeBMD website:

Patrick Allen married Letitial Macready in September 1862, W. Derby, 8b 806

You should be able to request a marriage certificate with these details.

I couldn't find a record for your Grandfathers birth in the civil registers, but perhaps you already have this.

I hope the above is of use/help.  I will see if I can find anything else that ties Patrick and Letitia to specific towns in Ireland but as both their parents were dead by the time they married this may be very difficult.  Let me know what you think of the above and I hope to hear back from you.

Linda

Parish Liaison, Kildare Town

Hello Linda,

I was absolutely thrilled to read your message, and all the information you have sent me, and so quickly – I can’t thank you enough!

Yes, that is my great grandparents’ marriage. Just before I received your message I discovered a fairly new website about the "Liverpool History project" which is still under construction, but on which I found just one marriage for Roman Catholics in Liverpool, with the name Patrick Allen, to Letitia Macready (although they wrote it is McGready!). This awakened a long lost memory of my mother telling me many years ago that there was the name Macready in the family, which I had forgotten. Re. West Derby, that is in Toxteth parish where they mostly seem to have lived.

I am subscribed to Genes Reunited, but cannot at the moment subscribe to the ancestry.co.uk and .com sites but maybe later on I can afford it. I tried the Mormon lists without success, also a few other of the many sites available.

I live in Norway but was born and raised in UK, and actually worked for some time in Liverpool, quite near to Toxteth which is the parish for West Derby,. but I will have to do some research as I do not recognise any Church names in Liverpool, as I lived in Wallasey, across the Mersey. I have located Hill Street and Head Street, both very close, and also close to St. Patricks of High Park Place. They are also not far from the baptism place of Rose, at Mt. Carmel.. The internet makes these things so much easier. I have visited Ireland twice but each time only to Dublin but unfortunately did not have any time to visit other areas.

The other thing that is puzzling (although maybe not so much, given the uncertainties at those times of places and even dates of birth), is that in one census (1911) Letitia Allen is said to come from Liverpool, both 1891 and 1911 give Co. Wicklow, 1881 gives ‘Kildare’, the 1871 census simply says ‘Ireland’, and 1861 census gives someone with her name and birth date living as a housekeeper in Bold Street, where everyone else is an apprentice milliner, and says she is from Scotland, although that could in fact be someone else. With the same name and date of birth! Although it is possible the enumerator actually spoke to people and mistook an Irish accent for a Scottish one – this still happens today! Although to me they sound entirely different.

I would very much like to know when and why they came to Liverpool. The why I could give an educated guess, but the when is difficult as at that time, I have read, emigration to England was not considered going out of the country, so was not listed in the ships registers. I think it was before 1861 because of info. in census returns.

I requested the marriage certificate of James Allen and Mary Bridget Doyle, circa 1891, from GRO, but they refunded my payment with a reply that they could not find anything. I have looked everywhere, but the only thing I can find is rather strange. Today, in aancestry.co.uk,because there are so many Allens, and slightly fewer Doyles, I started a new search the marriage of Mary Bridget Doyle to James Allen and put in the spouse family name of Allen, and place as Liverpool, Toxteth park, West Derby and each time the first entry of many thousands came up with the following, which is obviously why GRO could not find the marriage, without the dates. The entry kept coming up first because there were no dates, I guess. Here is the entry I found

----------------------------------------------------------------

England and Wales, marriage Index 1916 !o 2005.

Bridget Doyle

Spouse: Allen

No date. Liverpool Lancs!

No mention of other names

England and Wales, birth, marriage and death indexes, 1837 – 2005.

?

(Usually when you hover the mouse, you get a box showing names of other people, but on this occasion there is nothing available . Also, I did not see on any of the other entries the other spouse’s name mentioned underneath the search name. I admit however that I only went through about 20 pages, and not the whole 43,000!) – P.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very strange!

My grandmother always talked about Co. Armagh, which confuses things, as I, only very young at the time, do not know exactly who or what she was talking about!

Once again, thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to find this for me, I am very grateful. If you think I might have any information for you, please ask. I do not know what records or genealogical information you keep, but if anyone else is interested in this family I actually have a very good photograph of my great grandmother, Letitia Macready Allen, sitting, a very old lady, with my grandmother, Mary Bridget Doyle Allen (born Liverpool I believe), outside their house in Wallasey, Cheshire (now Merseyside).and by her is my father John, age about 5, and my aunt Mary Bridget, (Molly), about 7 or 8 years old. By that time Letitia was living with her son James and his family in Seacombe, Wallasey.

Thank you once again and I am sorry to take such a time to reply, but it has taken some time to absorb all this and also to do some more research.

Regards,

Patricia

Hi Patricia

You certainly have your work cut out!  Lots to take in from your last message.

However, in the meantime I found your grandfathers civil birth record and one for his sister Rose.

James Allen Born June Quarter 1869, West Derby, v8b p244

Rose Allen born Mar Quarter 1875, West Derby v8b p246

I'm not sure if these will tell you anything new but it's worth knowing the details if you need them.

Can you tell me anything more about your great grandparents?  Do you know the names of any brothers or sisters?  Finding these may help find their home parish in Ireland.

Also, can you tell me where you got the name Mary Bridget Doyle?  Was she Irish or born in Liverpool?  Lastly do you know anything more about her and her family - siblings etc.

All the best for now

Linda

Kildare Town Parish Liaison

Hi Linda,

Sorry once again for the delay in answering you and I am very grateful that you are trying to help me on this – much appreciated! I have had some family crises and then, finally, I re-subscribed to a well known genealogical site, and although it was accepted, I was suddenly, the next day, informed that I ‘needed to subscribe’ to access records! I have ample proof that I have paid but they won’t accept it, so I am now shut out of the records I want to look at, and am awaiting my credit card company’s investigation!

Thank you for the latest information. I knew my grandfather’s date of birth but not that it was West Derby – it must have been in St.. Patrick’s RC church there. I have contacted Liverpool Record Office who now hold those records, but unless I can go there myself, I think it will have to wait, as the researcher charges £25 for an hour’s research. From personal experience I know how long searches can take, especially as I have so many people from that family to look up.

I know that my aunt Molly (Mary Bridget) was for some reason baptised in Mt. Carmel church, not St. Patrick’s. After that they moved, I don’t know why, to Wallasey Cheshire, and their local Church was St. Joseph’s in Seacombe. I know that because my father used to attend there. I have not looked into St. Joseph’s yet but it is on my list, and could reveal the other 3 children who died, siblings of my father, whose names I do not even know yet..

My father said he was one of a family of 11. The others were my uncles Frank and Michael, and aunts Anne, Bella and Molly (real name Mary Bridget).

I was told that Bobby(Robert) died from poisoning through chewing the gas man’s indelible pencil while he was in the kitchen having a cup of tea with my grandmother. A Robert Allen is recorded in FreeBMD as being born 1894 in Liverpool 8b. The other who died that I know of was Letty (Letitia), obviously called after her paternal grandmother, but I don’t know how she died.

My grandmother’s name, Mary Bridget Doyle, was from my grandmother herself, who said that was her full name, and that they came from Co. Armagh. She herself is always listed in the census returns as having been born in Lancashire, not Ireland. I have no idea of her parents' names.  The problem with that is that there are so many Mary Doyles in Lancashire any of whom could be her (or not!).

As I said, the GRO could not find any marriage certificate for my grandparents, even though I gave correct names, place and date, however I have now sent off for Patrick and Letitia’s marriage, and will see what happens! My mother years ago wrote down what little she knew, but she wrote Mary Bridget Doyle, and also that in the Allen family her grandmother’s name was Macready’ (Letitia who married Patrick). None of the other names came up and I have found what I know only from census records. The only certificates I have on the Allen side are of my parents’ marriage, and my father’s death certificate.

I have not found any siblings of Letitia or Patrick.  I do not know which parish they were from, and Irish census records are very few and I can not find any surviving for Kildare. I have found their children as follows

Robert born 1867

James 1869 (my grandfather)

John 1873

Rose 1875

Francis 1865

I don’t know if it is of any importance to my reseaarch, but I did find a Patrick Allen in the Irish tithes Apportionment in the parishes of Ballycullage ar Hartland (?) and Scullogesstown. But Patrick Allen must surely be a very common name in Ireland?

That’s all I have for now. Maybe I will subscribe to another site while I await the outcome of the card investigation. I’ve sent them ample proof but they are just stonewalling me.

Thank you again for your help.

Hello again Patricia

I'm still looking into your family tree and have found a few interesting details and some leads that might be of interest.

Firstly, Patrick Allen and Letitia McCready had a baby girl called Hannah on 07/08/1862.  This was just before they married in September. Hannah was baptised in the same church they married in - St Patricks.  I found these details on Ancestry in the records for Liverpool, Catholic Baptisms 1802 - 1906.  The parents names have been incorrectly transcribed but they can be clearly seen on the original image.  I think Hannah must have died young though, as she does not appear on the 1871 census.

I still cannot find a marriage record for James Allen and Mary Doyle.  However, the 1911 census shows a Michael Doyle aged 31 living with James and Mary in Parry Street, Seacomb.  If you assume Michael is Mary's brother then the following might be their family on earlier census (this all has to be proved properly):

1901, 61 Eldon Street, Bridget Doyle (head) age 50, wife (husband at sea), born Ireland; Mary Doyle, daugher, age 24, barmaid, born Lancs Liverpool; Michael Doyle, son, 20, Dock labourer born Lancs Liverpool; John Doyle, son, 16, dock labourer, born Lancs Liverpool.

This same family also appears in 1891 (Mary is not living with them and husband must be away at sea again) but the mother Bridget gives her place of birth as Athboy, Ireland.

In 1881 Johnn Doyle (Seaman), Bridget, Mary and Michael are living in 9 Hanover Square.

In order to prove the connection to this family you need to find the marriage of James and Mary.  How?  Well, firstly I believe they were married in or around 1901 as they state on the 1911 census that they have been married for 10 years.  Secondly,  I have found a birth and death record for a Letitia Allen born 1903, died 1904, and if she is the first child of James and Mary it may be they married in the church she was baptised/buried in.  The following burial record is on the familysearch website: burial 19/11/1904, Letitia Allen, born 1903 died 17/11/1904, Wallasey, St Josephs Catholic Church, Seacomb, Cheshire.  The civil birth record is Dec 1903, Letitia Allen, Birkenhead, 8a 552.  The death record is Letitia Allen Dec 1904, Birkenhead, 8a 390.

If you get the birth cert this will confirm where they were living and if it is in the parish of St Josephs then perhaps that is where they got married.  You could try contacting the parish office for a lookup.

I think that is it for now.  If I can find anything else on the marriage I'll let you know.  Let me know what you think of the above.

Bye for now.

Linda

Hello Linda,

I am sorry that I have not replied to your latesst information, but I was unaware that you had replied.   Usually I get an e-mail notification but this time I did not.  In the meantime we have had a bereavement and so family history and other things have taken a back seat.

However, I am online again and will now absorb what you have sent, and get back to you as soon as I can.  Unless there is some hitch like last time, when my fee was returned with no find, the marriage certificate of Patrick Allen and Letitia McCready should be sent to me from tomorrow, so fingers crossed it will have some more information.

I'll be back - thanks again,

Patricia.

Hi patricia

So sorry to hear you had a bereavement. My condolences.  Please feel free to contact me here whenever you have an update or need some more help.  I the meantime I will try to come up with whatever I can in connection to your family tree.

Best regards

Linda

Hello again!

At long last I just received the copy of the original marriage certificate of Patrick and Lettitia.  Unfortunataely there is not much more than I knew before; however it is not the same as the printed version that is available on several sites.

First, only the fathers' names are given, and they are both deceased.  The mothers' names are not given, they could still have been alive in 1862.  Next, they did not both live at 6 Head Street, as that was Letitia's address.  Patrick lived at 19 Hanover Street, both of Toxteth park Liverpool.

Patrick's father is described as a gardener.  However, Letitia's father was a soldier!

Interestingly, Patrick only made a cross for his signature, whereas Letitia signed hers.  But it looks something like Letica and then something not readable, so the registrar has queezed in above it 'the mark of Letitia Macready'.

That's about it, except that I am in touch with someone on ancestry.com descended from the same couple.  His grandfather and mine were brothers.  But he knows no more than I do about the Irish parishes they came from.

I'm now trying to see if either of their parents were also in UK at any time, but without much success.  The soldier link might be productive but I have no idea of what kind of soldier he would have been at that time - I will have to research some Irish history.  All I know is that Letitia in one census is written as coming from Co. Wicklow.

I thought you might like to know these latest little pieces.

Regards,

Patricia

Hi Patricia

delighted to hear from you and to receive the new information you have. But you left out the fathers names! What were they? I wonder if it's John Doyle?  Might reinforce link to the Doyle family I found where the dad John was listed as a seaman. 

All the best for now.

Linda

Kildare Town Parish Liaison

Hi Linda,

It's the Allen (Kildare) and Macready (poss. Wicklow) family, not the Allen/Doyles.

In your message to me August 12th you wrote the fathers' and mothers' names.  I forget where just now but I found those entries also, recorded in a ledger with mothers' names included, and all marked deceased  However when I got the copy of the original handwritten certificate, only the fathers' names were listed, and those two were deceased.

The father of Patrick Allen (born 1828-9 Co. Kildare) was Frank and he was a gardener.  Patrick's mother was Rose.

Letitia Macready's father was Thomas, and he was a soldier. Letitias mother's name was Anna.

I found a public tree on ancestry.com which lists Tomas as being born around 1799 and his wife Anna as born around 1800.  However, there are several errors in the tree so I am not taking those dates for granted until I confirm them.  I am not in touch with that tree owner yet.  There is one other public member tree but it seems to be just a copy of the one I mentioned.  When I have more info. I will inform those two.  This info should be shared as it's so difficuilt to find, and also it should be kept to pass on, I think, so although some people are not willing,  I don't mind sharing any of my info. with others.

I am now searching everywhere for the births and marriages of those two sets of parents, but so far without any luck.  It would be good one day to come and search in ireland, but at the moment I just wouldn't know where to start!

Thanks for your interest and help.

Kind regards,

Patricia

Hi Patricia

Sorry about that!  Obviously I didn't check my notes and got mixed up in the tree.  It's very difficult to find birth details in Ireland pre1864 as this is as far back as the Catholic Civil records go.  If the parish could be identified then the church records might hold some details if they are available.  Very difficult to do research in Ireland but I will try to help you as much as I can.  I think the fact that Letitia's father was a soldier might be helpful.  Fingers crossed.

Let me know if you need me to do some research here in Ireland for you and I'll see what I can do.

All the best

Linda

Kildare Town Parish Liaison

Hello,

I have not posted for a while but have done a lot of searching, but with not much result.  However, somebody suggested that my grandmother could have been married before and found a marriage between a James Allen and a Mary Connor in 1901.  To cut a long story short I looked it up on ancestry co uk and got all the info. I needed and sent off for the certificate.  When it came, it was indeed the marriage of my grandfather, James Allen, father Patrick Allen from Co. Kildare.  The surprise was that my grandmother called herself Mary Connor, spinster, father John Connor!

After some thought I did some digging round in old papers and found the page where my mother had written down the names, including Mary bridget Doyle.  Ahe had listed it as the "grandmothers" names, but now I think she was referring to her own grandmothers, not mine, so Mary Bridget Doyle was (or could be) probably my great grandmother,   Only the father is listed on the certificate, which was for a civil marriage in Wallasey, Cheshire, not Liverpool.  Without the mother's name, searching for a marriage between a John Connor and Mary Doyle gave so many results that it could be one of many marriages.  I also have had no luck in finding the birth of Mary Connor, as there are so many with that name with the approximate date. (At one time Mary Allen seems to only have aged 4 years in a decade).

As for the paternal side I have got no further than patrick Allen and Letitia Macready but anything I find I will def.post, as I know it is part of a few other members trees on various sites.  Thanks again for trying to help!

Regards,

Patricia

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Regards,

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