Killanummery, Leitrim - Seeking Local Researchers of this place

Hello Jim,

I found the baptism records for three children of Patrick Murphy and Elizabeth Hamilton in the Killenummery Catholic Parish. The Civil Parish is spelled Killanummery. Two of the Murphy children were named Patrick, which means the first-born child named Patrick had died, and his parents named another son after him. The third child was Robert. The baptism records do not give the address of the Murphy family. But in looking at two different land records from the 1830s and 1850s, your Murphy ancestors may have lived either in the townland of Altnagullen or the townland of Tullynascreen, County Leitrim.

If you would like this information I can send it to you this week, but I need to do a little more research to see what else I can find.

With Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

Hello Dave, I'm astonished that in one day one this MB I've had your helpful reply. Indeed, I'd appreciate your information. I fell upon Killanummery by chance early in the year when I discovered Thomas, twice married in Aberdeenshire, had a brother, Robert, a few kilometers from his house. It is by following Robert that a record of his had Killanummery on a Census record. Once I'd learned that I could start investigating. However, it seems only landowners leave much of a mark on history! I wonder if your source is what I read -- Handwritten Priest Records? You must be clever to have searched so quickly because I needed better glasses after a week of trying. Various surnames repeat in these records but Murphy seldom appears I found. Anyway, I look forward to learning what you have and other suggestions you might offer. Thanks very much, Jim

 

Further work:

Following Dave's lead above I found the oriignal 1834 Townland Records:

• Search the Tithe Applotment Books​

​​As he suggests, Murphys are found in Altnagullen and Tullynascreen. However, where are these places within Leitrim? The latter is readily found but not the former.

My source is: 

• https://www.ongenealogy.com/listings/county-leitrim-irish-townlands/

Going to Killenummery, Tullynascreen is listed but not Altnagullen.  No hits on Google either despite several mentions in the Tithe Books. Certainly, it was somewhere in the past but not today. A mystery!

 

 

You're welcome Jim. I hope to get back to you this coming weekend with the records I found concerning the baptisms of the Murphy children.

Kind Regards,

Dave

Hi Jim,

I'm still working on the Murphy and Hamilton genealogy. The research has taken longer than anticipated, but as soon as it is completed I'll send another reply.

By the way, has anyone in your family been a surveyor?

Best Wishes,

Dave

Dear Jim:

 

You may be interested in making contact with the Carrick On Shannon Historical Society as they would know of local researchers in the Killanummery area.

 

Their email address is:  cos.localhistorycentre@gmail.com

As Killanummery is on the Sligo border, it may also be worth your while to contact the Local Historical Society there too.  The Sligo Field Club is very active and the email address there is:  jjpforan@gmail.com

 

Please let me know if you need any further assistance.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jane

Hello Jim,

I initially uncovered the baptism transcriptions for the two Murphy children named Patrick and their brother Robert Murphy at the Find My Past (FMP) website. FMP has transcribed Irish Catholic Church baptisms, marriages, and deaths/burials for all 32 counties of Ireland for many years of the 19th century, and even records from portions of the 18th century. You can access the transcriptions for free. For example, you can search for baptism transcriptions at the FMP search engine at:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/ireland-roman-catho…

To search for Catholic marriages transcriptions at FMP, go to:
http://search.findmypast.com/search-world-Records/ireland-roman-catholi…

The FMP death and burial transcription search engine can be accessed at:
http://search.findmypast.com/search-world-Records/ireland-roman-catholi…

Most importantly, attached to the baptism, marriage, and burial transcriptions at FMP are copies of the original records held by the National Library of Ireland (NLI).

To complete the search for transcriptions you’ll have to register with FMP. Registration is free as is access to the transcriptions.

I’ve included links to the FMP transcriptions of the Murphy children, followed by other links that will take you directly to the Killenummery baptism records for the three Murphy children.

As you’ll see, Robert Murphy was baptized in 1829, while the first-born Patrick Murphy was baptized in 1833 and the second born Patrick Murphy in 1837. There were probably many more children that Patrick Murphy and Elizabeth Hamilton had, but I didn’t find the baptisms for any other children. There are gaps in the Killenummery Catholic baptism registers however.
As a point of information the name of the civil parish in this section of County Leitrim was spelled Killanummery, while the name of the Catholic parish was spelled Killenummery. The Catholic parish was also known as the Killenummery and Killery Catholic Parish. Killery is actuall in County Sligo, which means the Catholic parish was extent in portions of the two counties. You can actually see the location of the Killenummery and Killery Catholic Parish in a map from the National Library of Ireland at: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0171

If you decrease the size of the map you can see where the parish is divided between County Leitrim and County Sligo.

At the above NLI link you’ll also see that Killenummery Catholic baptisms begin on 8 May 1828 and go to 7 August 1846. There is a gap in the register s at this point, but they puck up again on 1 November 1848 and conclude on 9 May 1881.

Killenummery marriage commence on 22 June 1827 and go to 16 August 1846. There is a gap in the registers at this point. The register start again on 10 November 1848 and end on 14 May 1883. Concerning marriages, I had looked for the marriage of Patrick Murphy and Elizabeth Hamilton, but didn’t find it. If they married in the Killenummery Catholic Parish, they may have married before 22 June 1827, or they may have married in another Catholic parish.

The Killenummery death and burial records begin on 18 May 1838 and end on 16 April 1846.

To access the FMP baptism transcription for Robert Murphy, go to: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE/PRS/BAP/0635287

You’ll see that Robert was baptized on 26 June 1829 and that his parents were Patt Murphy and Elizabeth Hamilton. Attached to the transcription is a link to the National Library of Ireland Killenummery and Killery baptism register. You can access the register at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632439#page/8/mode/1up

You’ll next see two facing pages of the register.

You can enlarge the pages by means of round icons in the upper center/ right of the screen. The icons are white with green backgrounds. You can also access the full-screen function by clicking on the last icon on the right with the two arrows pointing northeast and southwest.

Robert’s baptism is on the left-hand page, fourth entry up from the bottom. On the line below his name and the names of his parents you’ll see the initials “sp.” These initials stand for “Sponsors,” meaning godparents. The first name of Robert’s godfather is Michael. His last name is a little difficult to read because of the handwriting, but may be McQuinan. The godmother is Ellen Hamilton, who may have been Elizabeth’s sister.

Unfortunately, the baptism record does not tell where the Murphy family were residing when Robert was baptized.

Next, the FMP baptism transcription for the first-born Patrick Murphy can be found at: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE/PRS/BAP/0635966

He was baptized on 27 March 1833. You can access a copy of his original baptism record from the NLI at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632439#page/27/mode/1up

Patrick’s baptism is on the right-hand page. Scroll down the page until you come to the number 27 near the inside fold of the register. His baptism is the second entry below the number 27. His parents are recorded as Patk Murphy and Eliz.th Hamilton. The first name of Patrick’s godfather is Thomas. I could not tell what Thomas’s surname was because of the handwriting. Patrick’s godmother was Mary Beirne.

There are two death entries right below the baptism of Patrick.

The second-born Patrick Murphy was baptized on 22 April 1837. The first name of his mother is recorded as Betty. To view the transcription of Patrick’s Killenummery baptism, go to: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE/PRS/BAP/0636929

Patrick’s baptism is the 6th entry down the right-hand baptism register page at the following NLI link: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632439#page/55/mode/1up

Patrick’s sponsors or godparents are Pat. Connor and Betty Donaher.

After finding the baptism records for the Murphy children, I next wanted to see if I could locate the Killenummery Catholic Church where they were baptized. I knew from previous experience that the church where the baptisms took place was not necessarily located in Killenummery itself, but may have been situated in a nearby townland.

To find out where the church was, I accessed information about “Killenummery” at the GenWeb site, which quotes information about the Civil Parish and the Roman Catholic Parish taken from the 1837 edition of Lewis’s Topographical Dictionary of Ireland. The description in part, notes that, “In the R. C. divisions the parish is the head of a union or district, comprising also the parish of Killery, and has a chapel at Ballinagar…”

To read the full description of Killenummery from GenWeb go to: http://www.irelandgenweb.com/irllet/parishes/KillanummeryCP.htm

From the description of the Killanummery Civil Parish, we now know that the Catholic Parish Church of Killanummery was located in Ballinagar. I now wanted to see if I could find the Parish of Killanummery and Ballingar on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1841 time period, which is the time period in which the Murphy family had lived in the parish and also the time period in which Lewis’s Topographical Dictionary of Ireland was printed.

I accessed the Ordance Survey Map from the GeoHive website, which shows the location of the R.C. Chapel in “Bellinagare”. Once at the map, you’ll find the R.C. Chapel toward the lower left of the map while the label for the Civil Parish of Killanummery goes across the top of the map. You can view the map at: http://bit.ly/2Lmurjk

Once you’ve accessed the map make sure to close the menu so that you can view a greater surface of the map. You can also pan the map by using your mouse and pointer.

For a more centralized view of the Bellinagare R.C. Chapel on the Ordnance Survey Map, go to the GeoHive link at: http://bit.ly/2LtEtyY

On the map you’ll see the chapel is just below the Bellinagare Bridge.

Today the Killanummery Catholic Church is called St. Mary’s You can view a Google map of the church at: http://bit.ly/2LtEtyY

For a Google Street View of St. Mary’s Church, go to: https://is.gd/Ac7MeZ

I believe that St. Mary’s Church is in the same location or near the same location as the R.C. Chapel shown in the Ordnance Survey Map, though the Murphy children would not have been baptized in this particular church structure. According to the Parish of Killenummery and Killery website, St. Mary’s was not constructed until 1859, when I believe your ancestors would have been in Scotland. See the website link for more information about the church: http://www.killenummery.com/page3.html

WHERE DID THE MURPHY FAMILY LIVE?

Unfortunately, the baptism records for the three Murphy children did not give a place of residence for their family, the way some baptism records do. To see if I could find where they may have resided I accessed two land records, which are available to search for free. The earliest of these are the Tithe Applotment Books, which were recorded from 1823 to 1837. For a good explanation about the Tithe Applotment Books, go to the following three National Archives of Ireland links at:

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/about.jsp

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/aboutmore.jsp

The second land record is a property tax record called Griffiths Valuation. The valuation took place in Ireland between 1847 and 1864.

First, the Tithe Applotment Books. The search engine for the Tithe Applotment Books can be found at the National Archives of Ireland link at: http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp

I searched the Tithe Apploment Books for any Murphys leasing property in the Civil Parish of Killanummery. The tithes were recorded in the Killlanummery Civil Parish in 1834. I found an index which shows that a Thomas Murphy and a John Murphy leased property in the townland of Altnagullen. The index also shows that a Thomas Murphy leased property in a townland called Tullynascreen. You can view the index at: https://is.gd/rTpE88

If you click on either entry entry for Thomas Murphy and John Murphy in Altnagullen, you’ll come to a copy of the original Tithe page where they are recorded. Thomas and John Murphy are recorded on the same line of the page. They are the third entry up from the bottom of the page, just below the entries for John Lang and John Kearns, and just above the entries for Danl O’Hara and Edwd Maxwell.

The Tithe record actually shows that Thomas Murphy, John Murphy, Danl O’Hara and Edwd Maxwell had leased 7 acres of arable land in common with one another. They may or perhaps may not have had houses on this property, but just used the land for farming.

I also found that two landholders named Hamilton were recorded in the Tithe books in Altnagullen. They are Hugh Hamilton and James Hamilton on Lines 3 and 4 under Altnaguillon. You can view their tithe entries at: https://is.gd/JexXWc

There were several other Hamiltons recorded in the Tithe Books leasing property in various town located in the Killanummery Civil parish. You can view their Tithe indexes at: https://is.gd/rPUsNk

I tried for several days to find out where in Leitrim Altnagullen was, but without success. I couldn’t find it on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1841 time period, or on a modern Google Map. Nor could I found a townland by that name in County Sligo.

Just yesterday I sent a query to the Leitrim County Library asking if anywhere there could find out where Altnagullen was in the Civil Parish of Killanummery. I have yet to receive a reply.

The second tithe record for a Thomas Murphy shows he had leased property in Tullynascreen. There is the possibility that this Thomas Murphy and the Thomas Murphy who leased property in Altnagullen, were the same person, and the possibility that one or the other or both were related to your Patrick Murphy. Click on his name to access a copy of the original Tithe record for him.

In the original Tithe record Tullynascreen is spelled, “Tullinaskreena.” Thomas Murphy is recorded with several other individuals leasing land in common in Tullinaskreena. These individuals are all recorded between brackets { }. But, if you go to the first name recorded in Tullinaskreena above Thomas Murphy and the rest of the leaseholders, you’ll see the name William Hamilton, who may have been related to Elizabeth. William Hamilton is actually recorded twice. The second time as “ditto.”

I found Tullynascreen on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1841 time period at the GeoHive website. You can access the map at: http://bit.ly/2FD6IYv

A Google Map shows that Tullynascreen, by the shortest route, is 3.6 miles south of Killanummery: https://is.gd/qK7W5v

For a Google Street View of Tullynascreen, go to: https://is.gd/56ORXD

For a Google Street View of Killanummery see: https://is.gd/sMMyvi

I next looked for Murphys and Hamiltons in the Irish property tax record known Griffiths Valuation. As mentioned earlier Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for County Leitrim was completed by the year 1857. But by this time however, your direct Murphy and Hamilton ancestors were no longer living in Ireland according to your records.

You can search Griffiths Valuation for free at the Ask About Ireland website at: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman for the owner. This person was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

I didn’t find the townland Altnagullen in Griffiths Valuation. But I did find a Patrick Murphy and a James Hamilton and Bridget Hamilton leasing property in Tullynascreen.

Below is the Griffiths Valuation transcription for Patrick Murphy in Tullynascreen:

No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 22a
Civil Parish: Killanummery
Townland: Tullynascreen
Occupier: Patrick Murphy
Immediate Lessor: George Lane Fox
Description of Tenement: House and land
Area of Land: 23 Acres, 2 Roods, 6 Perches
Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 3 Pounds
Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 5 Shillings
Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 3 Pounds, 5 Shillings
____

Griffiths Valuation shows that Patrick Murphy leased a house and over 23 acres of land from an Immediate Lessor names George Lane Fox, who may have been the middleman, rather than the actual owner of the property. The land was valued at 3 Pounds, while the house was valued at 5 Shillings. The total valuation of the property was 3 Pounds and 5 Shillings. However, Patrick would not have been required to pay a tax on this property as only those leaseholds valued over 5 Pounds were subject to the tax. The owner of the property in this case would be responsible for paying the tax.

The map reference number at the beginning of the valuation entry for Patrick (22a), refers to the location of his lease on an Ordnance Survey Map from the time period. These maps are very similar to the Ordnance Survey Maps found at the GeoHive website, with the difference that the maps at the GeoHive site do not include location numbers or map reference numbers showing where a lease was situated in a particular townland.

The Griffith Valuation Map is available from the Ask About Ireland index for Patrick Murphy. However, I have never be able to find a way to link or copy these maps to the desktop to send to other people. I did manage to find the map reference 22a on the Griffiths Valuation map for Tullynascreen, and can show you the location on the Ordnance Survey Map from the GeoHive website, which you saw earlier. But for quick access to the map go to: http://bit.ly/2FD6IYv

Once at the map center it so that the letter C in Tullynascreen is in the center of the map. You can also enlarge the map. The map reference number 22a is just above and to the right of the letter C. This is the area where Patrick had leased his house and land. His land extended below the letter C going diagonally past the number 14 and the two OSI initials you see as you pan up on the map to go south. The initials OSI stand for Ordnance Survey Ireland.

Below are the Tullynascreen Griffiths Valuation entries for Jas. (James) Hamilton at Map Reference Numbers 1,2, and 3, and for Bridget Hamilton at Map Reference Number 4a. Both leased their property from George Lane Fox, who was also the Immediate Lessor for Patrick Murphy’s property in Tullynascreen.

The valuation for James Hamilton shows he leased three parcels of land, one of which was over 1 acre, while the second parcel is under 1 acre, and the third parcel over 5 acres. He did not lease a house. The total value for his property is 2 Pounds and 10 Shillings. The valuation entry also shows that James was a surveyor.

The absence of a house in the valuation is an indication that he either lived in residence that was paid for by another Occupier, or that he had lived in another townland altogether.

The valuation for Bridget Hamilton shows she leased a house and over 6 acres of land from George Lane Fox. The house had no value attached to it, while the land was valued at 3 Pounds, which is the total valuation of the property she leased in Tullynascreen.

The transcriptions for James Hamilton and Bridget Hamilton are below:

No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 1,2,3
Civil Parish: Killanummery
Townland: Tullynascreen
Occupier: Jas. Hamilton (surveyor)
Immediate Lessor: George Lane Fox
Description of Tenement: Land
Area of Land, First Parcel: 1 Acre, 2 Roods, 13 Perches
Area of Land, Second Parcel: 0 Acres, 3 Roods, 1 Perch
Area of Land, Third Parcel: 5 Acres, 3 Roods, 19 Perches
Rateable Annual Valuation of Land, First Parcel: 10 Shillings
Rateable Annual Valuation of Land, Second Parcel: 5 Shillings
Rateable Annual Valuation of Land, Third Parcel: 5 Pounds, 3 Roods, 19 Perches
Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: -
Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 2 Pounds, 10 Shillings
____

No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 4a
Civil Parish: Killanummery
Townland: Tullynascreen
Occupier: Bridget Hamilton
Immediate Lessor: George Lane Fox
Description of Tenement: House (no value) & land
Area of Land: 6 Acres, 1 Rood, 33 Perches
Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 3 Pounds
Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: -
Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 3 Pounds
____

James and Bridget Hamilton were likely related, but you cannot tell how they were related from the Griffiths Valuation entries alone.

I went back to the Ordnance Survey Map of Tullynascreen accessed from the Find My Past website to see if I could locate James Hamilton’s lease at map reference numbers 1, 2, and 3, and Bridget’s lease at map reference number 4a, but could not identify these locations on the map.

As to where Patrick Murphy, Elizabeth Hamilton, and their children had lived in the Civil Parish of Killanummery, circumstantial evidence places their home either in Tullynascreen or Altnagullen. This is based on information found in the Tithe Applotment Books and Griffiths Valuation.

Jim, I can’t say with certainty that your Murphy and Hamilton ancestors had lived in Altnagullen or Tullynascreen. Perhaps they had lived in both townlands at one time or another.

One of the questions you had is, where is Elizabeth’s husband Patrick Murphy buried? He would have died after the birth of his second son named Patrick, who was baptized in the Killenummery Catholic Church on 22 April 1837.

If he died in Ireland I may have found Patrick’s church death/burial transcription at the FMP website. This record shows that a Patrick Murphy died on 10 September 1837. You can view the FMP transcription of the burial at: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE/PRS/BUR/0039305

As you’ll see in the address of Patrick at the time of death was recorded as, “Attnagnillon,” which is another spelling for Altnagullen.

The Killenummery Catholic Church register where Patrick’s death is recorded is a register that includes both baptisms as well as deaths in the parish. The register can be found at the NLI link by going to: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632439#page/57/mode/1up

Patrick’s death is on the right-hand parish register page. Once at the page scroll down to the subheading “September.” Now, go down the page to the third entry below September. You’ll see the following death:

10. “Died in Altnaguillon, Widow Murphy, aged 73.”

Below the Widow Murphy you’ll see the death for Patrick:

“Died in Altnaguillon, Patk Murphy, aged 45.”

The place of death in the register does not appear to be Attnagnillon as noted in the FMP transcription, but Altnaguillon.

Jim, do you know if Elizabeth’s husband Patrick stayed behind, or emigrated to Scotland with the family during the famine? If not, the above death/burial record may refer to him. The widow Murphy may have been Patrick’s mother.

At the age of 73 in 1837, the widow Murphy would have been born circa 1754. At the age of 45 in 1837 Patrick would have been born in 1792.

If they are your ancestors, then you know the family would have lived in Altnagullen, Civil Parish of Killanummery, Catholic Parish of Killenummery, County Leitrim. The deaths range from the years 1832 to 1841.

The Widow Murphy and Patrick Murphy are two of 13 death/burial transcriptions for Murphys who had resided in the Killenummery Catholic Parish. There is one other death/burial record of a Murphy who died in Altnaguillon. This is for Thomas Murphy. He died on 10 December 1837. His record is the 8th entry down from the top of the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632439#page/59/mode/1up

At the time of death Thomas was 40 years old, placing his year of birth circa 1797. His death record is interspersed with baptism records on the page. He may have been Patrick’s brother.

I didn’t find any deaths for Murphys living in Tullynascreen. I also did not find any death/burial records for Hamiltons living in Tullynascreen or Altnagullen. You may want to check the FMP death and burial register for the Killenummery Catholic Parish in case I missed any Murphys and Hamiltons who had died in Tullynascreen and Altnagullen.

Also, Jane Halloran Ryan had a great suggestion in contacting the Carrick On Shannon Historical Society, as well as the Sligo Field Club to see if any if the members there can tell you where Altnagullen was or is located.

Jim, don’t hesitate to write back if you have any questions.

Best Wishes,

Dave

Dear Jane,

I'm delighted to learn your suggestions which I shall follow up on. It's kind of you to offer this advice. You will see from Dave's extensive investigation that the chances of shining a light deeper ino the recesses of time appear slim! Nonetheless, I will send your links an email and see what happens. Thanks again, Jim

 

 

Dear Dave, I was astonished at your interest, energy and detail when I read your work to assist a person you do not know. You are truly a selfless and generous individual! Some of the detail you offer I have touched on but your knowledge and experience has given me several avenues to explore I would never have discovered for myself. Thank you very much. I like the way you set our your interpetations based on facts that came to light. I agree with you in each case. We can never know if a name on any given record is the person of interest, but on balance, you can make a considered determination. The link between Hamiltons and Murphys in this small area appears indisputable but which Hamitons and which Murphys? No surveyors in the family BTW! I've been looking into my background for about 15 years. I began with a dozen names and ended with 1678 including my wife's side. Like you I've enjoyed the challenge and the nature of old fashioned detective work. But what has amazed me is that nobody in the family is interested in the results other than to express a passing, 'Oh that's interesting.'. Twice I have offered my computer files to family members and did not receive a reply. What this says about modern man and the nature of education is truly disappointing and discouraging. But Jane, you and I - well, we are different. We bank on the fact that someone, perhaps yet unborn, will appreciate our interest and achievements and be thankful. We each need to leave a good photo behind displaying a nice grin and big wink next to a large glass of red. Dave, you're a marvel mate! I wish we could share that wine now. Best wishes, Jim

 

 

 

You’re welcome Jim, and many thanks for your very kind words and for your reply. It is too bad that many of our family members are not interested in where they come from. At least we know that we are proud of our Irish heritage, and hopefully someday our research will spark interest in those that will follow us.

I’m all out of red Jim, but I do have a few jars of the Guinness, which I’m about to uncork. Cheers.

Dave

Hello JIm,

Today I received an email reply from Mary Conefrey, Assistant Librarian of the Leitrim County Library, in response to my email about the location of Altnagullen. Mary's reply is below:

Hello David
Your enquiry sent to Leitrim County Council has been assigned to me in the Local Studies Library.
Altnagullen is a local unofficial name in the Killanummery Parish. I have checked this out and can confirm that Altnagullen is actually in the Ordnance Survey official townland of Tullynascreen.

Míle Buíochas

Mary Conefrey
Assistant Librarian
Leitrim County Library
Ballinamore
Co. Leitrim

E-mail: mconefrey@leitrimcoco.ie

Telephone: 071 9645567
____

It appears that Altnagullen is a part of Tullynascreen, even though I couldn't find Altagullen on any modern or 19th century Ordnance Survey Maps.

Thanks Jim, and Best Wishes.

Dave

Dear Jim:

 

That's great news to hear from the librarian.  It sounds as if the placename is only very locally known and it may have been on older maps.  I would recommend that you definitely try to connect with the local historical society contact as there may be others who can give you further information about this.  

The best of luck with your research and please let me know if you need anything further here in Ireland.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jane

Dear Dave, 

Again, a great piece of detective work on a puzzle that has been in my mind since those two places came to my attention. Being on the spot and understanding who might be able to assist is half the battle. From a distance it appears daunting. Thank you, I'd never have succeeded myself!

Once data point I'd like your speculation on is the Record of Death of Patrick and his mother. It's unusual and I offer three possibilities. First, fire or flood causing simultaneous demise. Second, suicide. Third, coincidence. The first and last are possible but unlikely. With regard to the second ... Catholic strictures against the decision ... So, I'm led, like Holmes back to the unlkely and have found this in Google for 'Ireland 1837: August – following a very cold summer there is widespread failure of the potato crop, as in 1836, leading to famine later in the year.' These circumstances might well have led to suicide before outright starvation. I doubt any local newspaper would have record and it'd be impossible to locate in any case.

Thus, without a record of Patrick's baptism, where I might find his parents' names, my search ends. ('Widow Murphy' is just tantilizing.)

Anyway, please have another Guinness -- on me! Better still in this case, a Murphys?

Dear Jane,

I'll look into the great lnks you've offered once my 5 and 7 year old grandchildren have returned to Shanghai after their summer vacation! Three weeks to give their parents a break takes us back to 1979 when we last took full responsibility for our two youngsters. They go to bed at 7:30 and we flop at 7:45. We are out of practice. At least the beach is 24C mid-winter and they love the freedom! 

The very best to you both, Jim
 

 

 

 

 

You're very welcome, Jim.  Please let us know if you are ever coming over to Ireland.  One of our local volunteers would be happy to meet with you.  

 

All the best,

 

Jane

Hi Jim,

I'm going to jump in here now.  I've also been researching the area following my own family mystery for 4 years now and I wanted to share an observation here.  Altnagullen and Tullynascreen are essentially the same community by a) local and b) official titles.  When you look at the Tithe Appl. names (Flynn, Kearns, Murphy, Moffit, Conlon, Hamilton, et al) and then compare the names list to those found in Tullynascreen you find both appearing there.  So Altnagullen was a local name for an area within the Tullynascreen boundaries and for me that is confirmed by finding so many residents of one on the Valuation for the other.  I would be very comfortable in that knowledge and therefore not overlook any records found for Tullynascreen based solely on location name.  

Also, it is not as unusual as one might think of a death of two people on the same day or very close to the same day.  With famine came disease and often TB could bring about the loss of family rapidly and in quick succession.  In my tree there are ample examples of this happening.  One person would be the first to get sick and as the others cared for them the disease would spread throughout the household and next thing you know it you had deaths in rapid succession in the same household.  I would look to the potential for disease being the cause of the two deaths so close together.  

I may have some information in my files about the Hamiltons of Killanummery area as they intersected with my family, the Youngs as well as the Hetheringtons, on several record sets.  I'll post what I can find for you.

Cheers, Tracy

 

 

Hello Jim,

Unfortunately, I don’t know of any records that go back far enough in time that would reveal who Patrick Murphy’s father and mother were. The Killenummery baptism records only go back to 1829, which would have been much too late to have recorded his baptism, if baptized in the parish, while the Killenummery marriages begin in 1827, which would be too late to have recorded the marriage of his parents, that is, if they had been married in the parish.

I have the same situation with my direct Boylan and Quinn ancestors, one who was born in County Cavan, and the other ancestor born in County Roscommon. I haven’t been able to uncover the names of their parents since I began researching Irish genealogy in 1988, before any information could be found online.

There is a late 18th Irish record that gives the names of individuals who were involved in growing flax for the linen trade. This record is from the year 1796 and is called by a few names. One of the names for this record is the “Irish Flax Growers List.” The other is the “Spinning Wheel Survey.”

To see if I could find any Murphys or Hamiltons recorded in the flax growers list for the Killanummery Civil Parish in County Leitrim in 1796, I went to the https://www.failteromhat.com/flax1796.php
website, which describes the Irish Flax Growers survey as follows:

Irish Flax Growers, 1796

The Irish Linen Board published a list of nearly 60,000 individuals in 1796. Spinning wheels were awarded based on the number of acres planted. People who planted one acre were awarded 4 spinning wheels and those growing 5 acres were awarded a loom. Donegal and Tyrone had the highest number of awards. Dublin and Wicklow were not included in this list. These extracts contain the name, parish and county. The barony was listed instead of the parish in a few of the records. Also known as the Spinning Wheel list or the Flax Growers Bounty.

There were a number of individuals in the Killanmmuery Civil parish recorded in the flax growers list, but no Murphys. There are three Hamiltons however, who are on the list. They were Edmond, Henry, and James. They may have been related to Patrick Murphy’s wife, Elizabeth Hamilton. The list just gives the name of the Civil Parish where they were living, not the townland.

See below:

Hamilton Edmond Killanummery Leitrim
Hamilton Henry Killanummery Leitrim
Hamilton James Killanummery Leitrim

Souurce Information: https://www.failteromhat.com/flax1796.php
____

I also found information about the Flax Growers List at the Ancestry.com website, which gives a more comprehensive explanation of what this record entails, and also notes that more information about Ireland’s flax growers can be obtained for a fee from the Ulster Historical Foundation in Belfast.

Please see below:

About Irish Flax Growers List, 1796

Processed to produce oil and textile goods, flax was an important cash crop of the 18th and 19th Centuries. During this time period, thousands of Irish farmers grew the crop for their livelihood. Provided by the Ulster Historical Foundation, this database is a list of known flax growers on the island in 1796. It provides the name of grower and county of residence. Reference numbers are provided for those desiring further information regarding particular entries. Researchers may contact the Ulster Historical Foundation at 12 College Square East, Belfast, BT1 6DD, United Kingdom. Revealing information on over 56000 persons involved in the flax industry, this can be an illuminating collection.

The Ulster Historical Foundation has provided this information. If you would like to know the civil parish location of any individual listed in this search result and the number of spinning wheels/looms that he/she was awarded then this is available from the Foundation. They will provide you with this data together with an assessment of the feasibility of undertaking research on this individual plus information on sources of potential relevance. The fee for this service is US$31/UK20 payable by credit card, money order or cheque.

Please forward your request together with any other information you might have on your Irish ancestors (e.g. Religious denomination-Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Church of Ireland/Episcopalian) together with your payment to:

Ulster Historical Foundation
12 College Square East,
Belfast, Northern Ireland, BT1 6DD

Telephone: ++01232 332288

Fax: ++01232 239885

Internet: http://www.uhf.org.uk

Email: enquiry@uhf.org.uk
____

The fees referenced above are U.S. dollars and British Pounds Sterling, but your credit card should be able to make the conversion to AUD if you wish to pursue this line of research from the UHF.

Ancestry.com also provides the names of the flax growers in Killanummery, including the three Hamiltons. See below:

Given Name: Edmond
Surname: Hamilton
ID: 28765
County: Leitrim

Given Name: Henry
Surname: Hamilton
ID: 28794
County: Leitrim

Given Name: James
Surname: Hamilton
ID: 28764
County: Leitrim

Source Information
Ancestry.com. Irish Flax Growers List, 1796 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 1999.
____

Jim, if you would like to find out more information about Edmond, Henry, and James Hamilton in the flax list from the Ulster Historical Foundation, you can do so by referencing their individual ID Numbers noted above.

Thank you for the suggestion about Murphy’s porter. This is a good beer too, and I think I’ll have a few rounds of the black liquid shortly, if not sooner.

Cheers,

Dave

Dear Tracy, Thanks for your two comments re -- the place name and your observation regarding simultaneous burial.  Whereas we can make a reasoned conclusion regarding the former by comparing lists, as you suggest, we can only speculate about the latter withhout a Daath Certificate or even attendance by a physician. Presumably Dirt Poor Tenants suffered in silence and never saw any aid apart from a priest offering codified words suitable for the occasion and ...?  Your comment about your family supports your theory for sure and possibly applies to mine. There are few choices without evidence, just probablity based on obsevation. I'm glad you jumped in! Best wishes to you.

 

Dear Dave, Your Guinesses give you a great engine and thirst for research! I'm astonished at what you've pieced together here in your latest offering. It is most helpful, indeed. By reading all the Priests' handwritten records I'd found:  27 March 1833 Baptism, Patrick son of Patrick Murphy and Elizabeth Hamilton (Source: Parish Priest Handwritten Records) but did not come across the seond Patrick you located. Two of the brothers went to Scotland. It makes you wonder what happend to the others. Why didn't they take Robert and Patrick? Thanks. When Thomas Murphy lost his wife in 1865 he had 6 kids. He married my ancestor, Margaret Smith, months later. From this 1 year union came my Great Grandfather.  This left Thomas in a pickle. He asked his mother to come across and care for them which she did until her death in 1872. A dutiful Irish mother! Ooops called to Grandkid duty immediately. I'll return to this when I'm able. Thanks Dave!

Attached Files

Hi Jim,

 

Altnagullen seems to have been a local name for part of Tullynascreen. There are quite a few local townland names in the area, which are not listed in Griffiths Valuation. The names are often used in Civil Registration records. Some of those names are still in use today (such as Moher and Ardvolley in Beagh), but I don’t know about Altnagullen.

 

Altnagullen and Tullynascreen were part of the estate of George Lane Fox. The Tithe Applotment Books for Killanummery (pages 222-227) have maps of that estate, so you can see where Altnagullen is located. Here is the map showing Altnagullen and Tullynascreen.

 

Iain Layden