Searching for my ancestor James O'Brien, possibly from Cultrasna, Kiltimagh District, possibly son of John O'Brien and sister to Anne or Anna O'Brien

Anne: Cuiltrasna townland is in Killedan civil parish in East Co. Mayo. The RC parish is Kiltimagh/Killedan. The bad news is that baptismal records for that parish start in 1861. The good news is that marriage records start in 1835. I searched the subscription site Roots Ireland and there was a November 6 1842 marriage between a John O'Brien and a Margaret Brennan. The witnesses were Thady Brennan and James O'Brien. More than likely they were brothers of the bride and groom. The 1855 Griffiths Valuation head of household listing does show a John O'Brien in Cuiltrasna townland. There were five O'Brien households in Cuiltrasna in the 1901 census. I will look for death records. Let me know if you have any questions. Roger McDonnell

Anne: See third record for 1885 death of Margaret O'Brien https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu… See eighth record for 1894 death of John O'Brien. https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu… Roger

You are amazing! Many, many thanks! I hope to visit. I have been reading the very sad history of the area during the Famine. I already knew Eavan Boland's poem, Quarantine, but did not know until now that I had ancestors from the parts of Ireland most affected. Thank you so much. Anne

Roger -- Is "Thady" a real name, or is it likely to be a transcription error? I have never heard the name before, and it's suspiciously close to "Grady". . .

Roger -- Is "Thady" a real name, or is it likely to be a transcription error? I have never heard the name before, and it's suspiciously close to "Grady". . .

The Irish given name Tadhg (pronounced like "taig" - with the "ai" rhyming with the English word "tie") was anglicized over the years in various ways, mostly as Thaddeus, Timothy, and (less often) Thomas, but also with forms like Tigue.  Thady is a shortened form of Thaddeus which one often sees in 19th century parish registers.  It was a not uncommon name in the Kiltimagh area. It was the name of one of my great-great-grandfathers who lived just a few townlands away from Cuiltrasna (which is the modern anglicized form of the townland name), and in various old records his name was anglicized as Thaddeus, Thady, Timothy, and Thomas, though he would have remained Tadhg to his Irish-speaking family (Irish was still regularly spoken at home in that area until the early 20th century).  Tadhg is not a particularly popular name now, perhaps because it is used as an insult against Catholics by Protestants in Ulster (as in: "He's a Taig").  I have some distant Judge and O'Brien relatives in the area, by the way, but don't know the exact connections.

In case you're interested, you can see more about Cuiltrasna at this link:

https://www.townlands.ie/mayo/gallen/killedan/kiltamagh/cuiltrasna/

In Irish, Cuiltrasna is Coill Trasna. The word "coill" means "woods". The word "trasna" usually means "across", but it can also have the meaning of "wide" in some contexts, so Coill Trasna presumably means "wide woods". The word "coill" is a common component in place names in the area, so the area was probably much more forested in the past than it is now (although reforestation is now taking place in many areas). The main local town, Kiltimagh (older spelling Kiltamagh) is Coillte Mach in Irish. The meaning of the name is disputed, with “milking woods” now believed to be most likely, with less likely meanings being “outer woods” or “woods of the plain”, based on the Irish form Coillte Amach, which modern scholars believe was not the original Irish name. The local parish church is the Church of the Holy Family in Kiltimagh, but the Catholic parish name is Killedan, from the Irish Cill Liadáin (“Liadán’s church”).

Hi Roger, Going to jump on this thread to ask you a question...you replied to Anne that most likely Thady Brennan and James O'Brien were brothers of the bride and groom. I've often wondered with these early parish marriage records if they were the fathers or not. As you know a lot more about these marriage traditions than I do, what makes you say they were their brothers? Thanks! Carolyn Toohey

Hi Carolyn! In my experience, the witnesses for marriages (as well as baptismal sponsors) were usually siblings/cousins/neighbors/friends. They does not rule out a father serving as a witness but I think it would have been unusual. Below is a link to a recent IRO news item regarding marriage records. FAQ 2 has more specifics. Roger https://www.irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/ten-faqs-about-irish-marriage… FAQ#2 What can Irish marriage records tell me? Marriage records in Ireland differ somewhat from what we may be used to overseas. How much information you can glean from them will depend on the type of record and the period it was recorded in. In Irish genealogy, the two main types of marriage record are: Early Church Records Parish registers may be the only evidence of a couple's existence in 19th-century Ireland. Best used in tandem with the baptism records of a couple's offspring, the information within parish marriage records will be limited to: the date of the marriage ceremony the maiden name of the bride the witnesses (likely siblings and siblings in law) the parish of the groom (when different from the bride) the stipend paid to the priest can hint at financial standing (compared to what others were paying) if lucky address (rare in earlier records) possible neighbors (marriages sharing the same date before Advent or Lent, would suggest a collective wedding in a central townland). Civil Marriage Records in Ireland contain far more clues for the family historian, but only for ancestors who wed after 1864.* address at the time of marriage (hopefully the family home, but not necessarily so if the occupation is "servant") the fathers' names whether the father was living or deceased (which can narrow down a death record search) whether the couple were of full age* or minors (age was not recorded) the venue in which the marriage took place (usually the bride's parish church) the witnesses (usually relatives) the celebrant (priest, minister etc) Got a question about an Irish marriage record? Finding a record or entry hard to decipher? We're here to help.

This is all so useful and informative. Thank you again, Roger

Thanks Roger! Appreciate the information....