John and Ellen KENNEDY ~1780-1858 in Lorrha and Dorrha

Hi Marg . . . 

Welcome to . . . .  Ireland reaching Out . . . . and indeed . . Roscrea Town in Co.Tipperary . . 

Yours is a diffacult search . . by virrtue of dates . . and emigration . . 

But . . I note the number of Public Trees on. .  Ancestry.Com . . devoted to Ellen Brophy . . 

wouldn't she be so  pleased to think . . that . . exactly 150 years after her death . . her relations were still putting the jigsaw back together . . 

The Tree on Ancestry . . by ' cowper 186 ' suggests the search begins in Roscrea . . but . . I think this is because . . 

in those years . . the ' Postal District ' of Roscrea . . streched from Roscrea town . .  over to the banks of the Shannon . . 

so . . Lorrah is . . as you suggest . . the country district of  most interest.

https://www.logainm.ie/en/2202?s=Lorrha . . . . . . in the region of Ormand North

The Ancestry Tree ( Sugrue ) suggests that John Kennedy was born in 1772 . . and died before 1858 . . 

that his Father was a Joseph Kennedy . . Mother . . Jane ? ? ? (b 1752.)

When I search a. .  paid site . . .  called . . " Find my Past " . . .  John Kennedy's hits are in the hundreds . . but . . 

their marriage date would point to . . circa 1825. . your Dennis is born in 1826 . . . . . but no hints of John/Ellen marriage.

Same results . . Nil . . when searching . . . Ancestry.Com 

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http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0781                       Lorrha & Dorrha . . . 

The above . . is the original Parish Records ( R.C.) for Lorrha & Dorrha . . . 

and . . with patience . . you may be able to stike gold . . in those records . . . 

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Searched ( as above ) for Dennis &/or Anne  . . . nothing . . . 

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SO . . unfortunately . . I cannot progress your search . . much further . . BUT . . 

I am here if . . further info. comes to hand . . . or if you have further questions . . 

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscrea   . . . . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorrha

https://www.eirphonebook.ie/q/name/where/Lorrha,%20Co.Tipperary/who/Ken…

Cheers from Roscrea . . .Eamonn.

The nearest volunteer for Lorrha is. . . 

James Heenan . . . . . lorrha@irelandxo.com

Dear Eamonn

It was good to hear from you so quickly. Thank you for your time and information. You have clarified a few things for me. I also looked at a few Ancestry family trees and am keeping an open mind. I know that a few are incorrect as to Ellen Kennedy's life in Australia. Her death certificate states Rosecrea Tipperary as being her birthplace so that narrows the search. The certificate also gives her marriage place  to John Kennedy as Lorrha Tipperary and her  age then as 18. She and her children settled in Maitland and Morpeth about 160 km north of Sydney, NSW. I live close to there and know in which cemetery she is buried so will be visiting soon to search for her grave. 

The maps are useful but I am confused about some of the older terms. For example:

 I found a John Kennedy and a Tracy? Brophy both in 1823 at Rosecrea Township of Carrick. ("Ireland Tithe Applotment Books, 1814-1855," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VX56-LVH : 24 May 2014), Brophy, ; citing Roscrea, Carrick, Tipperary, Ireland; Public Record Office, Dublin; FHL microfilm 256,680.).

John Kennedy in 1846 in Carrick, County Tipperary, Ireland( original place Deerpark Lodge, Carrick, Iffa & Offa East, Tipperary, Ireland)  Townland Deerpark Lodge. ("Ireland, Valuation Office Books, 1831-1856," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVML-L6XG : 5 December 2016), John Kennedy, 1846; from “Griffith's Valuation 1847-1864,” database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2014); citing Carrick, County Tipperary, Ireland, House Books, various libraries, offices, and a private collection.)

Does it make sense to you that this might be Ellen's husband John. I can't find any information about  Townland Deerpark Lodge.

Best wishes

Margaret

Hi Margaret . . . 

Your reply . . and search . . . 

You can discount Carrick - Iffa & Offa . . as this refers to Carrick on Suir, South Tipperary  . . a long way away from the geographic area of 

Rocrea//Lorrah-Dorrah . .  

Observation . . . in those years . . the only means of transport was horse/ cart / trap etc . . 

Roscrea ..the Town . . is a fair distance removed from Lorrah . . on the banks of the Shannon . . . 

Marriages . . usually . . were local .  . for both . . 

So . . I would suggest . . that both . . were from the same district . . . 

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When I search " Griffiths " . . . I do this through . . www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith- valuation/

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNam…

When you query John Kennedy . . . 23 John Kennedy's show up . . . with little to seperate them . . (click on

details) . . except townslands/landlords. . 

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Next . . I searched . . "Tithes Applotment " . .  a Church Tax on property . . 1823 - 1837

this will prove very frustrating for YOU . . . as there are far too many townslands . . . many many of which I know to discount ..Geographically . .

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp

when browsing . . put in name . . surname & first . . then Tipperary . . . . . forget about Parish/Townsland

again. . . lots of John Kennedy's . . . but how to seperate them ??

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Observation . . . Ellen must have been a 'brave' and 'fiesty' woman . . to undertake that trip . . with all her family.  Courage . . . 

Also . . there must have been a degree of money funds available to her . . so . . was that the

sale of land ??

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Here in Roscrea . . . we do have a group of hills overlooking the town . . known as Carrick . . 

but it was you who first pointed in the direction of Lorrah / Dorrah . .

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to search Roscrea . . R.C. Books . . . go to . . 

http://registers.nli.ie/           enter the parish name Roscrea . . . and 3 possibilities of books present  . . . all possible of help . . 

when you highlight a book . . . be aware of the assists  " filter events / dates " . . top left hand corner . . 

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Again . . Cheers . . . Eamonn.

Margaret . . . more . . . 

http://www.interment.net/data/ireland/tipperary/lorrha/index.htm

Hello again Eamonn. I will keep that cemetery information in mind. So far I have not found much more extra information for my Kennedy search. I visited East Maitland recently but it seems there is no burial site record or gravestone for Ellen Kennedy in the R.C. cemetery. Apparently records at the time were very scant. Meanwhile my mysteries deepen concerning the life of Ellen's son Denis, my direct ancestor.In 1851, he married a Mary Cummins, a lass also from Tipperary. Her mother was Mary Keogh. There are records of many Cummins and Keoghs around the Maitland area and I realize that it must have been a place where many Irish immigrants or ex convicts settled. So my search of your recommended sites has extended to those families. Enough to keep me busy for ages.

Thank you again, 

Margaret

In the geographical area . . of Lorrha/Dorrha . . sits this townsland (see below) Youghal Arra . . on the banks of the Shannon also . . 

Margaret . . I don't think this progresses the sum of knowledge . . but for what it is worth . . 

I found the following . . . ( the third one down - looks the more promising )

these found on ' Find my Past ' . . . 

Ireland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms Transcription

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First name(s)AnneLast nameKennedyBirth year1834Birth date18 Nov 1834Baptism year1834Baptism date20 Nov 1834ParishYoughal ArraAlternative parish namesArra, Burgess, Burgess and Youghal, Youghal, YoughalarraDioceseKillaloeCountyTipperaryCountryIrelandFather's first name(s)DensFather's last nameKennedyMother's first name(s)MaryMother's last nameWhiteRepositoryNational Library of IrelandNational Library of Ireland linkhttp://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634644#page/1/mode/1upRegisterBaptismRecord setIreland Roman Catholic Parish BaptismsCategoryLife Events (Birth, Marriage, Death)SubcategoryBirths & baptis

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Ireland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms Transcription

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First name(s)AnneLast nameKennedyBirth year1834Birth date06 Dec 1834Baptism year1834Baptism date07 Dec 1834ParishYoughal ArraAlternative parish namesArra, Burgess, Burgess and Youghal, Youghal, YoughalarraDioceseKillaloeCountyTipperaryCountryIrelandFather's first name(s)MichlFather's last nameKennedyMother's first name(s)AnneMother's last nameHaurachanRepositoryNational Library of IrelandNational Library of Ireland linkhttp://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634644#page/1/mode/1upRegisterBaptismRecord setIreland Roman Catholic Parish BaptismsCategoryLife Events (Birth, Marriage, Death)SubcategoryBirths & baptismsCollections fromIreland

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Ireland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms Transcription

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First name(s)AnneLast nameKennedyBirth year1836Birth date31 Dec 1836Baptism year1836Baptism date31 Dec 1836ParishYoughal ArraAlternative parish namesArra, Burgess, Burgess and Youghal, Youghal, YoughalarraDioceseKillaloeCountyTipperaryCountryIrelandFather's first name(s)FarnsFather's last nameKennedyMother's first name(s)AnneMother's last nameMcKeoghRepositoryNational Library of IrelandNational Library of Ireland linkhttp://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634644#page/1/mode/1upRegisterBaptismRecord setIreland Roman Catholic Parish BaptismsCategoryLife Events (Birth, Marriage, Death)SubcategoryBirths & baptismsCollections fromIreland

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Dennis was evidently married in Australia . . . . and of that . . we know nothing over here . . . 

Cheers . . Eamonn.

Hi Margaret

I too have been searching for information on John Kennedy and Ellen Brophy. My great grandfather was John Joseph Kennedy, the youngest child of John and Ellen. I believe your ancestor Dennis was the eldest child.

John Joseph Kennedy (1884-1886) married Jane Heuston (1853-1887) in Singleton in 1869. It is believed they moved to Sydney for medical treatment as they were both suffering from tuberculous. They both died young and are buried at Rookwood Cemetery. Jane's brother ,Robert, made the trip from Cunnamulla to Sydney to collect their children and returned home with them where he and his wife raised them.  One daughter, Mabel Ellen, was too ill to travel and remained in Sydney with friends. She died aged 14.

My maternal grandfather was John Heuston Kennedy (1878-1946). He married Matilda Emily Gardiner in 1897 and they lived in Cunnamulla and Charleville, Queensland. 

The information I have found is similar to what has been mentioned here.I wish I had more.

Will keep looking and hoping something else will surface.

Bev Young

Brisbane, Australia.

Hello Bev

A nice surprise to receive your post. It is strange to contact a living relative of a mutual ancestor. I recently met up with another Kennedy ancestry relative and we visited the gravesite at Waverley Cemetery Sydney of Denis and Mary Cummins.  I have another clue from her of the the death of John Kennedy, husband of Ellen Brophy but have not had much time to follow up on it. I will post to this board if successful.

I am attending the 150th Anniversary Celebration of Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney in a week of so. I have the gravesite details of John Joseph and Jane Kennedy and hope to visit it whilst there. If you would like a photo let me know. Previously I had visited there and photographed the grave of Patrick Kennedy ( ~1836-1907). He was an older brother of John Joseph and had married Catherine Madigan in Maitland in 1862.

Regards

Margaret

Hi Margaret

Nice to hear from you.

I saw the 150th Rookwood Celebration promotion and if I lived in Sydney I would have attended.

Yes, I would love a photograph of the headstone. If you would like it to send to my personal email address at bevyoung02@gmail.com would be great. They lived at 8 Watkin Street, Newtown. I believe Patrick and Catherine lived, either next door or backed on to their property. My sister and I visited last year. A lovely old terrace house.

Bev

Hello everyone again. It is some time since I posted originally but I am still on the hunt. I have been able to meet in Sydney another descendent of Denis Kennedy, son of John Kennedy and Ellen Brophy. She obtained from RootsIreland a gravestone inscription with the following information:

John Kennedy 

Died 27 Mar 1853, aged 42

Address Redwood

Cemetery - Lorrha Dominican Priory, Parish of Lorrha.

As mentioned previously, Ellen his widow migrated to Australia with 4 children in 1858. This gravestone inscription is a possibility for her husband John.

I then searched the Ancestry , Griffith’s Valuation, 1847-1864  and found a John Kennedy in the Townland of Redwood in the Parish of Dorrha and Barony of Ormond, Lower.  He leased land, house and office from Lord Bloomfield.

To those of you who know this area, does this seem a good possibility to you?

Thank you for your advice and support

Regards

Margaret

Margaret,

Firstly, in answer to your question from someone who was born in Sydney and not Lorrha... this could quite possibly be John's grave. I note from the records that when Dennis came out to Australia in 1849 he states that both his parents were alive, so John obviously died between 1849 and 1858. A grave in 1853 fits the bill!

So as to why I've been looking at this post... My great grandparents John Smith and Mary Darcy came to Australia in 1865 & 1866 respectively. john was born in Lorrha (Abbeville) while Mary was born in Terryglass but then the family moved from there to Lorrha finally settling in the townland of Ballyquirk. John and Mary married in Braidwood in 1866, did about 10 years on the goldfields of Araluen before setlling in Moruya where they lived and raised a family until their deaths in 1923. John is buried in the Moruya Cemetery while Mary is buried in Rookwood as she moved to Rozelle after John's death to live out her final days with one of her daughters.

I noted with interest that you mentioned Redwood. I believe that John's father, also John, and his grandfather James Smith were living at Redwood in 1852. Interestingly, in the 1824 Tithe Applotments, there is a property at Redwood known as "Walkins Farm" with the landlord being a Thomas Walkins. I have no idea of what ever happened to Thomas Walkins although I do know that John's mother was a Catherine Walkins - my 2x great grandmother - and John had a younger borther Thomas, who I believe was named after Thomas Walkins as he was, again only in my opinion as I have no proof, Catherine's father. I also have a gut feel that neither Catherine of her son Thomas survived the Famine...

On Mary Darcy's side, her mother was also called Catherine - Catherine Mara - and her parents were Michael Mara and Mary Kennedy, married in the Parish of Borrisokane but, I believe, lived closer to Terryglass and Lorrha. 

The more I dig the more I realise just how interwoven the lives of my ancestors were. I'm currently trying to sort out the relationships of the Darcys and Cahalans who were from Terryglass but worked their way over time to Lorrha. It was a Michael Cahalan from Abbeville, Lorrha, who sponsored John Smith's voyage to Australia. I'm also now wondering if the Mearas of Abbeville who were John Smith's godparents were somehow related to Mary Darcy's mother's Maras and if so how does Mary's grandmother Mary Kennedy fit into the puzzle - actually more like a Rubic's cube! - that is life in Lorrha of the 1840s to 1860s.

This reply seems to have taken on a life of its own so I apologise for that. One last thing - I notice you mentioned Maitland and Singleton in previous posts. I find this interesting as no one in my family seems to know why my grandfather moved from Moruya to Newcastle to marry my grandmother. My grandmother's mother grew up in Vacy on a property on the Allyn River (her family were from Dorset arriving in 1849) which is in the general area of Maitland and Singleton. I wonder if my grandfather headed up that way because his parents knew of a Lorrha connection there? A long shot I know but I'm quite happy to clutch at straws!

Thanks for your time reading this,

Cheers, Mario

PS Yes - an Italian name - I'm a real mixture!

Hello Mario

It was interesting to read your post and perhaps our ancestors were neighbours. If only we could ask one of them for answers to our puzzles. 

I think my Kennedy family settled in the Morpeth/ Maitland area because there were others families there whom they had known in Ireland. Morpeth originally was a shipping port with access to the sea and the farming area was very productive.

Good luck with your research.

cheers

Margaret

Correction to Diane Palos Post re John Kennedy and Ellen nee Brophy

My ggg grandmother was another Ellen Kennedy but Bridget the daughter of the above John Kennedy and Ellen nee Brophy who arrived in NSW aboard Northern Light in 1858 was my ggg aunt having married Patrick McCue youngest son of Timothy McCue and Sarah nee Ryan in East Maitland in 1863. Again I have lots of info and pics I'm happy to share.

Apologies for the confusion.

Intriguing as usual to find another thread in my search and thank you for the contact.

I had previously found this information on the two Kennedy sisters who married a McCue:

Bridget Elisha married to Patrick McCue at Maitland in 1863, as you mentioned. I think Patrick may have later been a blacksmith at Scone, NSW. I think Bridget  died in 1874 and is buried in the old RC cemetery in Scone. Perhaps you could confirm this information.

Ellen married John Mccue at Maitland in 1856 and died in the East Maitland area in 1894.

Do you know if Patrick and John were brothers?

Regards

Margaret

Hello Margaret,

Thank you for the contact.

As you have stated Patrick was the first blacksmith in Scone and he married Bridget Elisha Kennedy who I can now confirm was the sister of Ellen and they were daughters of John Kennedy and Elllen nee Brophy. So two sisters married two brothers.

I haven't found out when / how  Ellen jnr came to NSW but I am writing up the McCue family history as a family history project (non commercial) and have been lucky enough to travel to East Maitland and Scone to do research and take photos. So now I'm sure Ellen was my gg grandmother.

I've also been to the McCue area in Abbeyknockmoy Co Galway and will be going to Lorrha and related parishes in June 2019.

If you would like a copy of the section on John and Ellen and Patrick and Bridget etc I'm happy to email it.

Bridget is buried in Scone Old Catholic Churchyard with her infant children. Patrick is buried in Cemetery on New England Hwy with adult son Walter from his first marriage to Bridget and children from his second marriage to Elizabeth Miller.

I can't find burial details for Augustine or Joseph McCue the adult sons of Patrick and Bridget.

Similarly the burial locations of John Edward McCue and Ellen nee Kennedy in East Maitland and other McCues and Kennedys from there are hard to find as cemetery organisation of plot numbers changed but the McCues should be in Section C  in East Maitland Catholic Cemetery in a row of unmarked graves about 6 across (used to be plots 50 52 54 56 58 60). Still chasing this up. 

My email address is dianemccue340@gmail.com.

I'd be delighted to hear from you and anyone else who is interested in these stories.

Best regards,

Diane Palos

Hello Margaret,

Diane Palos here. We last exchanged info in 2018. My husband and I visited Lorrha in 2019 and were lucky enough to meet local historian David Broderick. I have additional information re the Kennedys and Brophys. Happy to share the latest info including accurate burial locations of the McCue family in East Maitland RC Cemetery.

I think Ellen Brophy Kennedy is buried in Hiland Crescent Cemetery in an unmarked grave.

My email address is dianemccue340@gmail.com 

Best regards,

Diane