To mix or not to mix, that is the question.

Hi

Yes records in Ireland can be patchy to say the least. Im going to give you a couple of sites you may find helpful

You could try checking the land records called the Tithe Applotment Books (1823-38) http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp

or the later Griffith's Valuation (1848-64) http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/

or the Church of Latter Day Saints (LDS) https://familysearch.org/.

www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse

CHURCH RECORDS (ROMAN CATHOLIC) Most Catholic records are held locally - One site which might be of use is - http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/ - where you can ‘browse’ an overview of available records per county. If you have any difficulty, you could try writing to the parish priest for possible assistance.

CHURCH RECORDS (CHURCH OF IRELAND) Church of Ireland parish registers for the period up to 1870-are public records. Registers are available for about one third of the parishes, however many were destroyed in the Public Records Office in Dublin in 1922. Most are still held by the local clergy, although some are in the National Archives of Ireland and others are in the Representative Church Body Library in Dublin. A list of all surviving registers is available in the National Archives. http://ireland.anglican.org/about/42 and http://www.nationalarchives.ie/.

CHURCH RECORDS (PRESBYTERIAN) Presbyterian registers are held in three main locations: in local custody, in the Public Records of Northern Ireland (PRONI) http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/family_history.htm and at the Presbyterian Historical Society http://www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com in Belfast. PRONI has microfilm copies of almost all registers in Northern Ireland and also lists of records held by the Presbyterian Historical Society. For the rest of Ireland, almost all records are in local custody. It can difficult to locate these as many congregations in the South have moved, amalgamated, or simply disappeared over the last sixty years.

Please make sure you link anyone else in your family who is interested in their Irish heritage to our site - and indeed anyone else you know of Irish heritage.

Go n?ir? an b?ther  leat,

Kind regards,                    

Genealogy Support

Ireland Reaching Out

Geraldine;

ok thamks for the reply.  The Tithe applotments I have used before for folk in Cork West with effect, however, my Robert Kincade or however it was originally spelt was born 1838.  He would therefore still be a boy during the period of the Griffith's evaluation.  I think the thrust of this site is to pair you up with a parish, however my flippant title points at a core issue you've skirted.  Irish are passionately keen on their brand of christianity, hell they've come to blows enough times over territory issuses and something a simple as a march through a town' streets by that other lot because it crosses boundaries.  The relevance of a record search can I suspect be cast aside by a reply of no to the question I put.  Would Catholic Mary have married a protestant, be he Irish or Germanic?

As you read I shall be perusing  the other sites, but Iit will be against the flow to jag a batismal or birth record for a seemingly non Catholic Robert Kincade

Hi

Kiltyclogher is a small village in the civil parish of Cloonclare, County Leitrim. It is on the border with Fermanagh. http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/townlands/index.cfm?fuseaction…

Most Catholic records are held locally - One site which gives a list of information available for Cloonclare is http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseact…

If you have any difficulty, you could try writing to the parish priest for possible assistance. http://www.kilmorediocese.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&…

Likewise the Church of Ireland Church in Kiltyclogher information can be found here: http://ireland.anglican.org/information/dioceses/parish/10840 - it may be worthwhile contacting them regarding your query.

In response to Q1- Yes - believe it or not - it did actually happen - occassionally - There is no way to be sure if it ACTUALLY happened in this instance - but it isn't completely unheard of...

In response to Q2- families with children of 13 or more were very common in the 19th century....

In response to Q3 - Civil registration records are available from the General Register Office (GRO). These start for all of Ireland from 1864. You can access the website here: http://www.groireland.ie/research.htm

In response to Q4 - There is no central repository for records in Ireland - and even if there was it would not provide anything remotely like 'full-coverage' of information for Ireland - there was no standardized method of recording and those who did record information were generally only basically educated - spelling was not standard in the 19th century - and very often individuals who were not of a 'certain class' were not considered important enough to be recorded at all!

In response to Q5 - I wouldn't even begin to speculate.....

In response to Q6 - There was no area in Ireland under Catholic 'rule' in 1838 - The Church of Ireland was the official Church of the island....

I hope this in some way has helped..... 

You may consider contacting the Leitrim Genealogy Centre for a more thorough service... http://www.leitrimroots.com/

Kind regards,

Genealogy support.

Hello cyn and thx for the reploiy.

Is this the one you mean?

ROMAN CATHOLIC PARISH REGISTERS
All known copies for Clooneclare(excluding originals in local custody)

Click here to commission research on these records

  BaptismsMarriagesBurialsWhere?ReferenceStatus  No records microfilmed  PRONI Open for public research  Apr 29 1841 - Dec 1885Nov 12 1850 - Sept 9 1884 NLIPos. 7505Open for public research  1841 - 19001850 - 1900 LeGC Online: paying 

Need I say more?? And thx for replying to each numbered question I initially laid out.

Now, just let me point out I have a firm grasp on both the patchiness of the Irish records, having spent countless hours on those of my ancestors, as well as the impact of a lack of standardised spelling in a mostly illiterate world.  I am also on the 'team' as an abroad helper to promote the site.  The above basically says he was born (actually 1835) a few years too early to be captured by known Catholic records of Leitrim, correct me if I'm wrong.

All of my ancestors of the first generation married fellow Irish immigrants or fellow children of first generation Irish immigrants.  I guess the English did much the same.  Now me Mary Ann Delan(e)y and hubby Robert have thrown up more or less the most challenging web of difficulties for a geneological search and I have searched them to all possiblities except for writing or emailing the Irish parishes ot maybe the Irish N.L. directly, but currently I have no tangible query.  Purely out of interest, I shall outline the few extra snippets I have gained since the first post..  If you don't have the interest, read no further. 

Robert's death cert. cited his place of birth as the parish of Kilty Clogher, a civil parish. I actually get a hit for a baptismal record under the church of Ireland.  By virtue of the apparent absence of Catholic records, this can't be compared with any Catholic counterpart.  His marriage cert. however really throws in the final touch of confusion.  As if it weren't enough that he's a protestant Irishman, it appears he's likely born an illigitamate, or a bastard child.  Can you get a more potent social mix?????? Whether the priest be protestant or Catholic in 1835, for the baptising of an illigitimate, imagine the priest's frown.  It's possible between the 2 only the CI priest agreed to a baptism.  Catholic are traditionally more hard line, but who knows.

Robert Kincade was married to Mary as William Hill. The legal marriage document has him as William Hill!!!!!!!!!  His mother is Mary Kinkead, yet another instance of :"spell it this way 'cause it seemed a good idea at the time".  His father is James Hill.  For the rest of his days he went by the name of Robert Kincade, and he was literate at the time of the wedding, Mary wasn't.  The alias of Hill was recognised in the probate documents made post his death.  So it appears he switched between his mother's name Kincade/Kinkead and his father's more spellable Hill.  Where William comes from for the marriage is yet another mystery, seemingly the only instance he used William, all other records have him as Robert.  So current day Kinkades descendants could have been or should be known as Hills!!!!

I've attached the marriage certificate of Robert and Mary and it has one final word that might shed a touch of light.  For a Catholic to marry a protestant, it requires unconditional permission from a Catholic authority.  Now the marriage took place in fact at a private residence in Geelong and not in the Church.  I still can't decipher whether this was because he was non Catholic or whether it was simply a convenient preference of my family's James and Eliza at the time.  Mary was 18 and required formal permission of mum and dad, which was provided by their presence at the ceremony, and James' one and only personal signature of an otherwise illitirate James Delaney, a real gem of a catch.  I'm guessing he learned how to write his own name and no more for such rare family and legal occasions.

This certificate reads    Marriage, by special  "{smudge}"  according to the rite of the Catholic Church.

Now I know you can't tell me if this implies Robert formerly converted to Catholicism so as to marry his beloved Mary, a distinct probability, but can you PLEASE attempt to read and decipher that "{smudge}"?? I would be so grateful.  I have Ireland Reaching Out in my skype.  It would be a delight to skype with you, maybe you can plug into head office's skype id. My skype id is idella4of5.