James Park/s 1798-1817 Co Antrim

Hi,

In order to locate what records might be helpful in your search, a good understanding of Ireland records and how they were kept will direct where you would look for what. The Irish genealogy toolkit covers the basics and can help direct your efforts.

http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/index.html

Knowing what religion he was can also help direct your efforts, as many of the records are kept in various locations depending on the religious persuasion of the family/person. More information is given at the above site that directs to specific religious institutions based on your answer to religious practice.

Also helpful will be to run your searches using the middle name if James is the first name and keep your DOB at a loose range as sometimes people only had an approximation of when born, so simply stated a ?year? when asked formally.

The site web of English History gives insight to the conditions at the time period your James emigrated. http://www.historyhome.co.uk/c-eight/ireland/ire1817.htm

More information on emigrant ships:

 http://www.youririshroots.com/irishhistory/ship.php

http://immigrantships.net/1820act.html

http://www.genealogy.com/genealogy/tip13.html

A site that has been helpful to many on emigrant ships is http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=45264389&pageid=r&mode=ALL&t=s&query=Parks

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=45264389&pageid=r&mode=ALL&t=s&query=Ireland

ISTG does have many other sites that are not showing on this list which will pull up under a general search.  You might have to do a lot of elimination reading, keeping track (perhaps on an excel spreadsheet) which ship lists you have already viewed. It took me about 2 weeks of searching lists before I found one of my emigrants into the Philadelphia port directly prior to 1800.

For some people, Philadelphia was actually the 2nd entry point, 1st entering into Canada as the fare was about half that of entering directly to America, so don?t eliminate ships from Ireland to Canada.

You might also find some helps through http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/index.htm that might help steer your search. Many parts of  this site are free although they do have more in-depth items that are at a very reasonable charge.

One thing to keep in mind is that although specific name of place is given for ?left from?, oftentimes a generalized more familiar area name was given rather than a specific location, so look at other close-by locations in determining where he was from.

Let me know if there is any other info you can relate.

Hope this all helps, Jeanette

Hi Jeanette, 

Thank you for replying. I have just now had time to review the links in your email. There are some good sources there. I will have to take some time and look at what they have to offer. 

I have had a quick look at the PRONI index that is on line, to see if I could find anything in the Presbyterian records between 1795 and 1817, but I ran across something that said these records had a gap which ended in 1820. I don't at the moment remember where I read that, but could you tell me if you understan the same? That for some years before 1820 there are no Presbyterial records for Co Antrim? 

I think the fellow who applied for citizenship below might be my James Parks, because only one James Parks is added to the City Directory for Pittsbutgh and Allegheny City between 1815 and 1826, and I can trace my line back to the James Parks I locate in 1826. If only one did appear, then the document transcribed below would describe his arrival. (The actual citizenship document is filed in Alleghey City in 1828.) 

If you know of specific sources that might contain information about his life before he left Ireland in 1817, I would greatly appreciate hearing about them. I am going to visit Norther Ireland the last week in May and I hope to find more information so I can know where to stand. 

Best regards,

Carey

Transcription of copy of naturalization application by Carey Parks:Cumberland County
State of Pennsylvainia
               Prothonotarys Office Carlisle
               24th day of October A.D. 182(0 or 9)

James Park a free white man now residing in the Borrough of Carlisle County of Cumberland and State of Pennsylvania begs leave to Make Report That he is above the age of twenty one years; that his name is James Park; That he was born in the County of Antrim in the Kingdom if Ireland; That before his emigration he owed allegiance to George the Third King of the United Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland, and that he is now 22 years of age; that he emigratd from Colerain in the Said Kingdom of Ireland, on the 15th dat of July one thousand eight hundred and seventeen and arrived at Philadelphia the 15th day of October in the same year and that he intends to settle in the Said Borrough of Carlisle. James Park begs leave to file his intention to becomea citizen of the United States.
               James Park

The PRONI on line catalogue gives you an idea of the general papers that they hold but it is only an index. With a few exceptions, the records themselves are not on-line, and in most cases you have to go to PRONI to look them up in person. (The records that are on-line are Wills, Griffiths revaluation records (indicating who occupied property from the 1860s onwards), and some 18^th century record of dissident Protestants etc. (Look under ?name search? on their website).

 When it comes to Presbyterian records, there?s no central database. Each church kept its own records. Most (but not all) have been microfilmed and you can access these in the main reading room at PRONI.  Though there have been Presbyterian churches in Co Antrim since the 1600s, very few have records that go back that far. It varies from church to church, but not that many have records before the 1820s (but some do). Around the year 1800, there were about 100 Presbyterian churches in Co Antrim, but I only know of 8 or 9 that now have records for the 1700s or earlier. So the majority of early records have been lost.

 The name Park(s) is very common in Co Antrim. There?s over 1000 of them in that county alone in the 1901 census, and they are spread all over the county, so that doesn?t narrow the search for you.

 I?d be slightly sceptical of the information that James married aged 15. It?s not that that was illegal (which it wasn?t then) but more that it was almost impossible for someone of that age to support a wife and family, and I suspect he might have been a little older when he married. Generally, it is rare to find anyone marrying below the age of 18. People did not celebrate birthdays in Ireland at that time and did not always know exactly when they were born and when they needed to provide an exact age they often just guessed, so ages can vary quite a bit in official records. Bear that in mind when looking for baptism records.

 As Jeanette has said, many migrants went via Canada (because it was considerably cheaper going that way). However there were few passenger lists for sailings to Canada before the 1850s, so arrival there can be tricky to verify. By far the busiest port of departure was Liverpool, which had far more sailings than went directly from Ireland. Competition for passengers was fierce and shipping agents generally threw in the cost of passage to Liverpool free as part of the package. So don?t exclude ships which sailed from Liverpool or Glasgow.

 Here?s a link to a website for emigration from Donegal around the time James left which gives a little background to the process.

http://www.finnvalley.ie/history/emigration/index.html

 Unless you can find some information that points to where in Co. Antrim James came from, you are facing the proverbial needle in the haystack, with the added risk that there may not actually be a needle in the haystack (if the relevant records are lost). The normal advice is to search every source in the US for clues as to the parish or townland the family came from. You have already checked naturalisation papers. Other common sources are censuses, obituaries, gravestones, wills, military records, marriage and death certificates (which can contain parents names and places of birth in some jurisdictions). If James had any siblings, you can also try tracing their trees in case that reveals the information you need.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Are you suggesting that there might be records in PRONI that I would not be aware of by searching the on-line indexes? Or do you mean that I can find an index entry on line but need to visit PRONI to view the document? I'd rather be at the sea cliffs than in PRONI if it will be a waste of time. On this trip I don't have the time to spend days and days digging. Perhaps a future visit if I have a better idea of where I need to look. More and more indexes and even documents come on-line every year. 

I have found the graves of James and his wife Mary Ann (Woods) in Pittsburgh, and the cemetary records don't contan much specific information. I understand a lot of times when someone in America was asked where the deceased was from, they wold default to Co Tyrone because that is the only county they had heard of. In Western PA at least. I have seen written histories of Alligheny City say James and his father William (two names almost as common as Park/e/s) were from Tyrone and Derry. One said Derry, Tyrone! So, since the naturalization papers seem to fit the arrival of my James in Allegheny City, I'm treating them as if they are the "more correct" data at the moment. There are quite a few James Park/s kicking around western PA in the early 1800's and a lot of them can be traced to the trees of relatives I've found via DNA testing. So when I can place a certain James Parks on someone else's tree, that eliminates a lot of information from my immediate tree. 

I am also a member of "The Park/e/s Society" which concerns itself with the lineage of all the Park/e/s/er names in America. They don't go back before immigration, but their work does help to sort all the Park/e/s/er over here into neater piles.

Sadly, the early census in the US only listed the head of household and counts of male/female as free or slave. As is always the case, going forward from James I have good documentation. But back - not so much. 

The "married at 15" was from the writings of a historian in 1904, doing a "First Hundred Years" book for Allegheny City. So I'm considering that information "fuzzy" at best. But perhaps the general story is true, with details being off. It could be he was married in 1815 rather than at the age of 15. That would make him a better age per your comments. Regardless since I have nothing else to look for, I'll see what use I can make of that (possible) tidbit. 

Best regards,

Carey

Carey,

The church records that PRONI hold are not on-line. The e-catalogue that you have been looking at holds different types of records eg estate, government and business records. The church records are a separate holding, mostly on microfilm, though some are just in paper format, and the only way to look at them is to go into PRONI. You can however see what churches and what years those records cover by looking at the catalogue on this link:

http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/research_and_records_held/catalogues_guides_indexes_and_leaflets/online_guides_and_indexes.htm

But looking at that catalogue on-line won?t tell you whether your ancestors are in those records. Nor will the e-catalogue tell you either.

To be frank, tracing where James came from on the information you have at present, will be challenging to say the least. From what you say, he was Presbyterian. That obviously indicates his ancestors would have come from Scotland, most probably in the 1600s. (An estimated 100,000 Scots settled in Ireland during that century, representing 10% of the entire Scottish population at the time). Unfortunately they spread themselves across much of Ulster and elsewhere, so James could just as easily have lived in Tyrone, Derry or Antrim. Those counties were all full of Presbyterians, plenty of whom were named Park, I am sure. Tricky. I don?t have any easy solutions. The earlier your ancestors left Ireland, the fewer records there are to check, and for people who left in the 1700s, there are almost no worthwhile records. If you don?t already know where the ancestor lived. It?s not easy, as I suspect you realise.

Elwyn

Thank you Elwyn, for clarifying.

I guess I'll plan on a day at PRONI and see what turns up, and learn the lay of the land so I can better plan any future visits. I do have a PRONI mission from one of my DNA matches here, who has access to a family bible that goes back to 1727, where it notes Joseph was born in Antrim, Co Antrim.  Her line came to America a lot earlier than mine, so our common ancestor is most likely in Ireland but could of course be in Scotland. We diverge fairly recently:

Generations / Percentage chance of sharing a common ancestor          4                    46.30%          8                    85.51%        12                    97.08%        16                    99.50%        20                    99.92%        24                    99.99% So probably in the mid 1700's or earlier, which to me says Ireland. If Joseph and I share all but two markers of the 67 tested, I think there's a fair chance that if he was not on my direct line, he was a brother or first cousin of someone on my direct line. With that quite sketchy assumption (but it's all I have) I'm going to pursue the 1st Antrim (Milrow) records for her benefit (and hopefully mine.) I am at the stage of turning over semi-random rocks and hoping to be lucky. I also intend to visit the site of 1st Presbyterian Antrim which from Google StreetView seems to be a historial location, judging from the placks and markers around it, with current buildings across the street.  Again, many thanks! Carey  

Regarding Joseph she states:

Following is the microfilm reference number and information.  I am highlighting what is pertinent to my family lineage but giving you all information should you be interested for your lineage or the other Parks researchers:

Ref. No.   MIC1P/3; CR3/2; CR3/64

Presbyterian Church – 1st Antrim (Milrow)

Baptisms, 1677-1733, 1753-85, 1791-2 and 1820-1960;

Marriages, 1675-1736, 1820-39 and 1845-1913;

Marriage notices, 1870-1995; deaths, 1820-35;

Indexes to baptisms, 1677-1733 and 1820-39; and to

Marriages, 1675-1736 and 1820-39;

Family records for the late 18th and 19th centuries

Stipend account books, 1837-64 and 1885-1924

Communion roll, 1854-9

Sabbath School library loan book, 1870 and 1879-81

Account books, 1821-61 and 1870-76;

List of seatholders, 1838;

Session minutes, 1823-4; 1831-2, 1834-9 and 1842-54;

Register of leaving certificates, 1842-50

Sabbath School Receipt and expenditure book, 1835-62,

  With a weekly roll of teachers and salaries, 1840-41;

News sheet for quarter ending 20 September 1963

Following is family information for both my Park/s lines as they both came from the same place as far as I know.  Please be sure to look for all spellings including Parker.

Seeking birth record, parents’ names and sibling information and anything else available for:

Joseph Parks, b. Jun 1727, in Antrim, Co. Antrim

  Other family names are John, James, Thomas, William and David

Alexander Park, b. abt. 1709, Co. Antrim

  Sons born in Antrim:  John, b. 1739, James, b. 1742, Alexander, b. 1744, and possibly a son Robert (probably no record of these considering the dates given above)

Carey,

Antrim 1^st Presbyterian is one of the few churches with records back to the 1600s. (I think there are only 8 Presbyterian churches in Co Antrim whose records go back before 1800). The church is still going strong, in the main street (though it?s not the original building from the 1700s of course). If you want in to see inside the church, contact the Minister or Sexton in advance to make arrangements to have the building opened (unless you are going to attend a service of course). They have the originals of the baptism and marriage records but you need to make arrangements to see them. You may find the PRONI copies easier to access and work with. I can tell you (having used them myself many times) that there is a typed index for some of the early records. Contact details for Antrim 1^st on this website:

http://firstantrim.com/

A quick historical note about Presbyterians in Ireland. The first big wave of Scots arrived in Co Antrim in 1606, in the Hamilton & Montgomery settlement. Most were Presbyterian and came from the Hamilton estates in Ayrshire and thereabouts. One or two Presbyterian Ministers joined them. They obviously had no churches at first, but the Church of Ireland allowed them to preach in their churches for about 30 years. (The Presbyterian services were timed to follow the church of Ireland ones).  And so any Presbyterians born or married in that period could be in Church of Ireland records (where they survive). Then the Church of Ireland bishops decided they would not continue the arrangement and the Presbyterian Ministers were all expelled. There was then a period of about 40 year with few or no Presbyterian Ministers in Ireland. Where there was one, services were held in the open air or someone?s barn. So not surprisingly there are no records of any baptisms or marriage conducted in that period. Then by about 1670, the Presbyterians started to build their own churches. So the earliest surviving Presbyterian records date from this period, ie late 1600s.

It?s quite common to want to trace a Presbyterian family back to Scotland. Unfortunately even fewer records survive for that period (ie the 1600s) and so it?s very rare to be able to do that, save to say that many of the settlers in the Antrim town area are known to have come from lowland Scottish counties like Ayrshire, Kirkcudbright and Wigtown.

Elwyn

Thank you again Elwyn for that very helpful information.

I will contact the church via their web site and see where it goes from there. Given the Joseph of 1727 the naturalization paper stating James was from Antrim, Co Antrim and departed Coleraine in 1817 at least fits. It's not proof, but it's not disproved either. 

I hope you know how much these small pieces of information mean to someone so far away who has been searching without progress for some time. Good on you for sharing your knowledge so freely. 

Best,

Carey

Carey,

Ask your questions now so that when you come to Ireland you are best prepared. One of the ideas behind this board is to help you get the best out of any visit to Ireland. So if you need help on searching records etc, ask now. Good preparation can make a huge difference. I live near Antrim town and so if you need local advice, feel free to ask me.

There?s a churchyard immediately opposite Antrim 1^st Presbyterian which I was in on the 13^th July a couple of years ago, looking for a grave. 13^th July is a public holiday here. A couple from New Zealand turned up looking to get into the church to see the baptism records, but it was locked. They had not contacted the church in advance and had not realised it was a public holiday. PRONI (where the records are also kept) was shut that day, and they were flying home to New Zealand the following day. So their trip was effectively wasted, at least as far as genealogical research was concerned. I felt terribly sorry for them. But they might have planned things a bit better.

Some churches are open during the week but many are locked, and even those that are open don?t necessarily have their baptism & marriage records available in the church. (Many have put them in a bank or fireproof safe etc for safe keeping). Contact with the church in advance is essential.

Presbyterians don?t keep burial records by the way.

Elwyn

And now you have me wondering what I'm seeing on Google Street View. I see the old white building that seems to be between the street and the churchyard. Is that an/the old church building? 

And also, how far back in time do the markers in the church yard go? Would it be useful to have a wander in the churchyard? 

Which makes me wonder how are churchyards thought of there. Is it acceptable to look for birds in churchyards? When we're not staring at old pieces of paper we'll be staring in the trees and bushes looking for spring birds. The green spaces of churchyards are a good place to find them. Here anyway. 

Thanks again,

Carey

The 1^st Presbyterian church is beside Viscount? O?Neills pub. It has a green roof. I suspect that what you are looking at is the old seceder Presbyterian church. Later a Unitarian church, which is now closed, and whose records seem to have disappeared.

Some Presbyterian churches do have graveyards. Antrim 1st doesn?t. Even where there is a graveyard attached to a church it doesn?t follow that your family are there. People often have family plots elsewhere eg in the Church of Ireland graveyard or in the council graveyard. Or the Park family might be in the Unitarian graveyard across the road. (You will need to get the key from the council offices as it?s normally locked).

There are gravestones (markers) that go back to the 1700s and earlier but not all are legible now. And bear in mind that 80% of the population then couldn?t afford a gravestone and so are in unmarked graves. The family knew where they were, but when they moved away of died out, the information was lost. Unfortunately Presbyterians in Ireland don?t keep burial records.

Yes you can look at the birds in a graveyard. Have picnic there if you like. No-one would mind. There?s about 460 species of birds in Ireland.

Most appreciated. I think I'm out of questions for the moment. I'm waiting to hear back from the church regarding my inquiry via their web site. 

Rest assured that I will be back in touch regarding the Antrim area. 

Best,

Carey

Hmm.. no response from the First Presbyterian Antrim to two emails and calling a couple times got their machine. I guess I'll plan on going to PRONI, and hope I can navigate their system. The only records of interest are the ones from this church, so it shouldn't be too hard to find them at PRONI. But it would be nice to see the originals at the church.

Carey

Not too surprised that you haven?t had a reply to your e-mail. With so many people having emigrated over the years, many churches in Ireland are now inundated with requests for genealogical data and not all have the resources to deal with them. PRONI may well be a better bet. (Some of the churches won?t show you the originals anyway as they are anxious to preserve them). This is what PRONI holds on Antrim 1^st Presbyterian church (aka Millrow):

P. 1st Antrim (Millrow) Baptisms, 1677-1733, 1753-85, 1791-2 and 1820-1960; marriages, 1675-1736, 1820-39 and 1845-1913; marriage notices, 1870-1995;deaths, 1820-35; indexes to baptisms, 1677-1733 and 1820-39, and to marriages, 1675-1736 and 1820-39; family records for the late 18th and 19th centuries; stipend account books, 1837-64 and 1885-1924; communion roll, 1854-9; Sabbath School library loan book, 1870 and 1879-81; account books, 1821-61 and 1870-76; list of seatholders, 1838; session minutes, 1823-4; 1831-2, 1834-9 and 1842-54; a register of leaving certificates, 1842-50; Sabbath School receipt and expenditure book, 1835-62, with a weekly roll of teachers and salaries, 1840-41; news sheet for quarter ending 20 September 1963.

The records are held under the following references: MIC1P/3; CR3/2; CR3/64. (The first is a microfilm and the other two are paper records). The PRONI system is very simple to follow. MIC1P/3 is a microfilm which you get in the self-service reading room. The other two you just order up using their in-house computer system. Typically they take about 20 minutes to arrive. The staff will show you how to do all that.