Michael Harty/Ellen O'brien married 14-feb-1888 in Kilfinane

Welcome to Ireland Reaching Out!

I did some searches but have not found any new information. I don't think the 1872 Ellen O'Brien in Co. Waterford is your ancestor. The marriage record shows she was of full age and I believe 21 was the full age at that time.

Hopefully someone else will have better information.

Roger McDonnell

I agree with Roger but I was born in Glenroe and I know the lie of the land and I have some educated guesses about who Ellen was.  There were many O'Briens living in Glenroe in the late 19th century but none with the first name Edmond described as a "farmer".  I have copies of the land books of the period and he would definitely be paying land Rates if he lived there. 

To find Edmond you have to cross into nearby Kildorrery parish in County Cork, townland of "Kilclooney".  This Edmond was married to Hanora Brassil.  Unfortunately I can't find an Ellen O'Brien with Edmond and Hanora as parents but I know that one of his daughters (Mary) married Patrick Condon of Tully.  Tully is where Michael Harty was born in 1892.  The surname has been mistranscribed into the Glenroe baptismal register as Michael "Hanley" with Ellen O'Brien as mother but the dates are close enough to believe they are the same person. 

One of the sponsors is John Downey which is a Kilclooney name.  Another daughter of Edmond (Kate) married Thomas Downey in 1879.   Edmond O'Brien seems to have died around 1871 so Ellen may have moved to Glenroe near her sister and found work there.

Regarding Nano/Hanora Connell on the marriage records, O'Connell is also a Kilclooney name,  It is where my family come from but there were also two other O'Connell families living there and it is more probable she would be from one of those.  There were also O'Connells living in Ballintober,Glenroe at that time.

There is a James Harty marriage in Glenroe in 1892 but frustratingly there is no matching civil cert with his address.  If it was also Doneraile it might be interesting to check it out.  I can find absolutely nothing for Michael Harty's first marriage in either Limerick or Cork.

I am attaching the manuscript version of the marriage cert.  I know this is all highly speculative.  Have you done any DNA testing?  I know somebody you should potentially match if my theory is correct.

Regarrds
Tim O'Connell

Tim:

Thanks!

Roger

Hello Roger and Tim, I really appreciate your response and assistance.  I needed some time to evaluate what you said and do some more research before I could reply. This continues to be a difficult search.  I have ordered the DNA kit and will probably get it next week.  I have been searching for the past 2 years using Ancestry, findmypast and Irishroots. I have also done research at the Cemetery where they are buried, at the Lawrence, MA city hall and at the Lawrence library looking up old obituaries. I’ve ordered all the death records of people I thought were their cousins or relations but so far I cannot definitely determine where Michael Harty or Ellen O’Brien were born or who their relatives are.  I’m promising my family a trip to Ireland once I figure this out. It has been a lot more difficult than I thought but I haven’t given up yet.

Roger, you are right that my G GM Ellen O’Brien Harty is probably not the Ellen Obrien b.1872 in Waterford because that would make her 16 when she was married in 1888. As you said she was of full age.  I’m assuming you saw the “full age” on the written baptismal record because I don’t see it on roots Ireland searches but might have missed it.  It would make sense that she would be older that 16 anyway. I was hoping the Waterford record would be her because that would match up with some of my other theories and it also provided the right names of the parents Edward O’Brien and Ellen Carroll.  Since I am desperate to make progress I have been working on many different theories.  She (Ellen O’Brien” died in 1898 in a kitchen fire when she tried to add kerosene to hasten the fire.  Her 6 year old son (Michael Harty b1892 in Limerick) was taken in by the John W. Carroll family in Lawrence, Mass.  I don’t know why Michael would not have kept his own children but that is what happened. One assumption was the Carroll family must be related to the Harty or O’Brien family but I have not been able to approve that. They might have just been good friends after all.  John W. Carroll (born in New Jersey1853 d.1920 was also the informant for info on my GGF Michael Harty’s death certificate in 1910. And there 2nd son William Harty b. 1898 (my grandfather) was adopted by the Mahoney family in Lawrence, Mass. and I also don’t see any family connection to them.

So now you know some of the back story.  Another theory I have been working on is to evaluate/model the other Harty families in Lawrence, Mass at the same time to see if I can prove they were my GGF cousins.  I ruled out them being siblings.  What is strange is the family I think he is related to has the same parents William Harty b.1790 and Margaret O’Connell b.1800. On the death certificate of Michael Harty b.1852 d.1910 it list his parents as William Harty and Margaret but does not show the maiden name.  It would be easy to just say he was their brother but that family already has a brother named Michael Harty b1835. And if you look at the age of the mother born in 1800 she would be too old to have Michael born in 1852 or even if he was born in 1848. She did have a son born in 1844 Edward Harty and William Harty b.1845.  I have a copy of a will that list all of those family members including the mother.  So that family is pretty well documented.  I still think that my Michael Harty is related to them or there was some errors on the death certificates.  For example my GGM Ellen Harty died in the fire in 1898 on her death certificate her address was listed as the same as Edward Harty b.1882 which was 302 Elm st.  But she didn’t live at that address. She lived with Michael on Oak st. I am not sure how an error like that could come up. I mean her husband Michael would have been there to give them the info. But maybe not.  And why would someone list another person’s address as their address on the death ? 

Tim, thank you for the written copy of the marriage certificate and the other research you did.  I have reviewed what you wrote. I would rule out Edmond O’Brien and Hanora Brassil from being related since we know that the mother was Ellen not Hanora and also they don’t have a daughter named Ellen born around 1865-1870. I have created trees in Ancestry for the O’Brien/Brassil family and the Patrick Condon and Mary O’Brien and then Thomas Downey and Kate O’Brien families . But I could not find any downstream connections to the Harty family or Lawrence, Mass.

There is also the mystery of Margaret O’Connell Harty.  As I mentioned they considered her born around 1800.  I still don’t know if this one is my GGFs mother but I have been researching it to see if I could prove or disprove it.  I see her listed in 3 different census living with her children.  In 1870 the census shows her living with Edward Harty b1844, in 1880 the census shows her living with Michael Harty b1835, and the England/London 1861 census shows her living with her daughter Margaret Harty Baker 1836 in England with her Husband michael Baker 1835. Given that I see her in 3 Census I assumed I could find her death certificate in Massachusetts and that would provide additional info. But her death is not listed in the town of Lawrence or state of Mass. So I continue to search for that. It is hard to believe she would live much longer than 1880 or move out of the area so once again I am at a dead end. 

Besides the DNA test I don’t know what my next step is.  My current assumption was to go back to the beginning with the information I am certain about which is why I included the Marriage record of Michael and Ellen in 1888 and the Birth record of their son Michael in 1982.

One theory I have that might also explain why I can’t find much info on Michael is there is a English/London connection.  I have a theory that his father William Harty b.1790 was in the English Army and that Michael probably spent time in England and maybe that is where he first wife was or where he was born.  Michael arrived in the US in 1892 so he was somewhat of a late comer compared to the other Harty’s in Lawrence who arrived in 1850-1870.  But the question also remains what did Michael do from 1850 to 1888 ?  Unfortunately I have been unable to establish that. The other family I have been evaluating in Lawrence (in addition to the Edward harty family) had 3 brothers come born in England and they seem to be cousins.  If you don’t know already Lawrence, Massachusetts was at the center of the American Industrial Revolution all these people worked in the cotton and wool mills.

Let me throw out one last thing, my father grew up playing the Irish card game that we call 45s here. I think you call it 25s.  Is that played in your area ? it is a bidding game where the top 3 highest cards are the 5, jack and Ace of Hearts. We still play it here in Mass.  

Thanks again for your time in providing clues to this mystery and for reading my response. If you have any advice I am open to it.

Shawn Harty, Andover, Massachusetts, USA

Shawn:

www.irishgenealogy.ie has the images of civil birth records from 1864-1915, marriages from 1882-1940 and deaths from 1891-1965. I looked at the 1888 civil marriage record and saw the "full" age indication.

Roger

Hi Roger, thanks for the additional informaiton.  On her death certificate (see attached image) it says her age was 29 in the year of her death in 1898. That would make her 19 in 1888, the year of her marriage. If this is correct then ellen O'Brien was born in 1869.  

I'm assuming the age is correct since the information was probably provided by her husband. Would you agree with that assumption.

I still cannot find any reference to Ellen O'Brien born in Ireland between 1866 and 1870 with parents Edmund o'brien and mother Ellen.

Do you have any sugestions on how I could find her or her father Edmond O'Brien ?

thanks, Shawn Harty

Hi Shawn
I guess I made the incorrect assumption that Ellen was born before 1864 but on re-reading the above again I see she was born after civil registration and guess what?  I found her birth cert which tells me that she was born in Kilclooney Sep 1st,1865, parents Edmond O'Brien and Hanora Brassil.  See attachment.   It is really weird that there is no Kildorrery baptism.  I guess it could be another transcription error.

Also "45" is what the card game you mention is commonly called in the Limerick & Cork parishes around Mitchelstown.

Also the kit number I think you will match is A446070 on Ancestry & GedMatch. 

Regards
Tim     

Hi Tim

Thanks you for finding Ellen O'Brien's birth record.  How did you find that record ?  Because I am not able to find it by searching on Irishroots or findmypast. I was able to find the record on ancestry.com but it is easier to find once you know what you are looking for Ellen o'brien, 1865 in Kildorrery. In cae you want to see how it was found on Ancestry I have attached the search.  It wil give me just the name and then a volume/page so I would still need to order it from the source.  

I hope that record is my G Gm but there is no way to confirm it yet. I have send my  DNA to Ancestry but it will take 2 months to get results.  

Assuming this is the O'Brien family (Thank you) then the mystery still continues with the Michael Harty family.  His DOB is 1852 but that could vary by 4-5 years.  Maybe the DNA test will help with that too.  but it would be good to  find something on him or his family.  Any suggestions ?

thanks, for your help.  Shawn Harty, Andover, Mass.

Yes, it will be O'Brien DNA, a great grandson of Mary O'Brien & Patrick Condon.  I am also closely connected to the Downey family but none of them have tested.

The site I found the information on is https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp

This site is completely free and is run by a Government department here in Ireland.  They have a reciprocal agreement with Ancestry and FindMyPast allowing them to access their database.

Regards
Tim O'Connell

Tim, can you tell me where Tully is  ? and I have some additional info on my G GM year of birth that  might change your analysis ?

Please see the attached image of Michael Harty's baptism on 1892 which shows his address as Tully.

I decided to look up all the Harty's in the towns where my G GF is shown as living (Doneraile, Cork at Marriage) or where his son was born (Tully) , to see if I can find any likley relatives and then search on them.  There is a Tully road in Limerick and in a different area is a place called Tully Brackey. But tully brackey is not searchable.  Is there a different name of town I should be searching on that might encompass Tully ? 

I'm still waiting for my DNA results Will know more in Feb.

Also there is some confusion on my part on my Great Grandmother's year of birth. Her death record (See attached death record) says she was 29 when she died in 1898. so that would make her born in 1869.  and that would make her 19 in 1888 when she was married.  When Roger looked this up, it said she was "of full age" at marriage. Maybe they accepted 19 as full age so I am ok with that.

But her husband was alive when she died so I am assuming he provided the informaiton for her death record.  Her info is more likley to be correct (unless her husband didn't know how old she was) which makes her born around 1869.  Does that change your analysis of her being the Ellen O'Brien of Kildorrery b. 1865 ?  Her father was Edmond o'Brien.  Michael Harty's parents were William Harty and Margaret (possibly O'Connell). 

I also attached their Marriage record for quick refernce if you need it.

thanks, Shawn Harty

PS: Merry Christmas

Hi Shawn

Here is a link to the townland of Tully in Google maps.  A townland is just a collection of farms within a parish and is the smallest rural division in pre post-code times.  Tully - Google Maps  Kilclooney is just a little further south near Knockanevin which you should also be able to see on the map.  It is in a different county, parish and diocese.  

Tully is called "Tulla" in Griffith's Valuation and on some maps and is in the civil parish of Darragh, if you need to look it up on historical map sites like AskAboutIreland. It is the only name like that in the parish of Glenroe and Ballyorgan.  If the the other ones are probabilities I believe they would not have married in Glenroe.

The 1892 record looks like a transcript of a Civil record rather than a baptism.  I believe the baptism has been mis-transcribed as Hanley but I have no access to the parish register for that period so I can't check.  I believe Limerick Genealogy has images so it might be worth mailing them to check.

Regarding age, I agree there is confusion but it is not that uncommon in this period.  For example people frequently give their ages a few years younger than they actually were in the 1901 Census. The marriage cert says she was full age which agrees the 1865 Mitchelstown birth cert I found because she would have been about 23 in 1888.  It also confirms her father was Edmond O'Brien which also agrees.  

I am not sure what to think about the death age.  Maybe somebody took a guess or maybe Michael was confused in a grief stricken state.  It is very difficult but I am really hopeful that the DNA will prove you are related to another O'Brien descendant.  I can give you his name if you mail me.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Tim O'Connell
(darragh@IrelandXO.com)

Hi Tim, you were right. I sent you a direct email also. I really appreciate the help Ireland XO and you have given me. 

I got the DNA results thru Ancestry and they have me matched as a 4th cousin to the TJCousin site.  In his site is the Patrick Condon b1839 and Mary O'Brien b1862 tree. 

Attached is the part of my tree where, thanks to your help, I was able to tie in Edmond O’Brien and Honora Brassil as one of my GG Grandparents on my father’s side.

So the big mystery still remains where did Michael Harty b. 1852 live and who is he related to.

The DNA did not give me any matches to any other Hartys.  Figures doesn’t it ?  This has been a tough search.

There is a Harty in the US that has contacted me and he is having his DNA done. I am hoping we are 4th cousins.

I want to thank you for your help.  By knowing for sure who my G GM parents were and where they lived (Kildorrery) should help solve the mystery of where Michael Harty came from and who his relatives are.

The other mystery was Michael was married before but we could not find any records on that. That might not be a big deal because I am assuming there were no children otherwise they probably would have come over with him. But the DNA might show something in that area.

I do want to take the next steps to solve the Mystery of Michael. I’m continuing to work on that here thru cemetery’s and possible relatives.

Thanks, Shawn Harty, Andover, Mass.

Hi,

I am also researching Hartys fro Lawrence, my mother's maiden name is Harty. Right now I am looking to find the names of the parents of William Harty and Margaret O'Connell. I was wondering if you had found any more information? I have also done the ancestry DNA.

Thanks,

Barbara

Hi Barbara, I wish we are related but I have a feeling we are not.  Are you part of the Edward Harty b1844 and Hannah moriarty 1851 of lawrence, Mass ?  I know they have William Harty and Margaret O'Connell b1800 at the top of their tree. My Great GF Michael Harty b.1852 has a death record also showing them as his parents.  But I was not able to prove a relationship thru the Edhard Harty family.  I have done a lot of searching on them. I don't find any that makes sense because my  GGF was born in 1852 and if Margaret would be too old to have him if she was born in 1800.  There is a Margaret Harty lining with the other Harty's in Lawarence in the 1870 and 1880 census.

for example, under the irish roots search I see these 4 people as children of William harty and margaret o'connell

Church Baptism  HartyPatrick  1821  Co. Limerick
Church Baptism  HartyWilliam  1831  Co. Limerick
Church Baptism  HartyThomas  1836  Co. Limerick
Church Baptism  HartyEdmond  1838   Co. Limerick

Since I have done a lot of seaching on the Harty's I might be able to help you if you can tell me your Harty relatives.

Also, if you did your DNA with Ancestry, what Harty families do you see in your first , 2nd or 3rd cousin list ? And what comes up when you clear on name search for Harty ? If you are with some other family tree program, what harty's does it show you are related to ?

Shawn 

Hi Barbara, I wish we are related but I have a feeling we are not.  Are you part of the Edward Harty b1844 and Hannah moriarty 1851 of lawrence, Mass ?  I know they have William Harty and Margaret O'Connell b1800 at the top of their tree. My Great GF Michael Harty b.1852 has a death record also showing them as his parents.  But I was not able to prove a relationship thru the Edhard Harty family.  I have done a lot of searching on them. I don't find any that makes sense because my  GGF was born in 1852 and if Margaret would be too old to have him if she was born in 1800.  There is a Margaret Harty lining with the other Harty's in Lawarence in the 1870 and 1880 census.

for example, under the irish roots search I see these 4 people as children of William harty and margaret o'connell

Church Baptism  HartyPatrick  1821  Co. Limerick
Church Baptism  HartyWilliam  1831  Co. Limerick
Church Baptism  HartyThomas  1836  Co. Limerick
Church Baptism  HartyEdmond  1838   Co. Limerick

Since I have done a lot of seaching on the Harty's I might be able to help you if you can tell me your Harty relatives.

Also, if you did your DNA with Ancestry, what Harty families do you see in your first , 2nd or 3rd cousin list ? And what comes up when you clear on name search for Harty ? If you are with some other family tree program, what harty's does it show you are related to ?

Shawn 

Barbara, you can also email me directly at sharty@sportsmanager.us  thanks, Shawn

Hi Shawn
A long shot,    According to his marriage cert, Michael's father was William.  There was a William Harty who had a number of children in Tankardstown, Kildorrery in the 1840's.   Three records say the mother was Hanora O'Donnell, the other says Mary O'Donnell.
1841 Mary
1842 John & Catherine (Mother Mary)
1844 Denis
1848 John
If William was a labourer who moved to Glenroe before Michael was born the records there do not start until 1853. 

According to the Tithe Applotments (About 1830) two Hartys paid Tithe taxes in that area.
Ballinguiroe - John Harty, 1 Acre
Tankardstown - Denis Harty 25.5 Acres.(Same surname and Townland)
In Griffith's Valuation of 1851 both of these had disappeared although there was a John Harty living in the townland of Ballyvisteen, Kildorrery. No land record comes in William's name so he was probably not a landholder.   Tankardstown is in Kildorrery parish but going in the direction of Doneraile.

Because Michael is described as an "artisan" in his marriage cert I searced Guy's directory of 1895 to see if he might be listed under some trade but there is nothing obvious.  I wonder if he could have been a Blacksmith as there was  a forge nearby in Darraghbeg townland.  Not many other trades would have been in demand in Glenroe.  Perhaps a cooper as butter used to be shipped in wooden barrells at the time and a creamery was set up in the area in the 1890's.

Also I can't find Michael's earlier marriage. A number of possibilities exist on the IrishGenealogy.ie site but the images are not yet available.  You have to order the physical copies at €4 each.  I am also surprised that there are not more children and that the first one is not called William.

Regards
Tim

Hi Tim, thanks for taking the time to add this information to my Michael Harty b.1852 search.  I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner. I have looked at your informaiton several times and have not made any progress.  I think their lives did revolve around tankardstown and doneraile. I see a harty family in doneraile that seems familiar but no actual Michael Harty.

I looked on the irishgenealogy.ie site.  I am not sure if I am seeing the marriages you are referring to, I see Michael Harty with 4 potential marriages to:  Bridget Heffernan July, 26,1885, Margaret Hayes July 10, 1881m Honora Murphy Nov. 12, 1876 and Mary Costello.  There are images for each of these marriges and when I checked them none had a father with William Harty or the correct/close DOB of Michael of 1852.  So I don't see any records to order.  If I missed it or if you see some records I could order please let me know and I will do that right away.

It continues to be frustrating because I can't find any siblings of Michael or his parents either thru searching or thru my DNA matching on Ancestry.com. With your ealier help I was able to find the relatives of his wife/my GGM Ellen O'Brien and her relatives back another 2 generations. I have been able to confirm it somewhat thru the other trees of Condon and others. 

His father was William Harty the Artisan.  His mother was supposed to be Margaret O'Connell but the last name could be in question.  

It is interesting that he was born in 1852 at the end of the great famine but he didn't come to the US until 1893.  so what did he do in all that time between 1873 (when he was 21) and 1888 when he married Ellen O'Brien (2nd wife) ?  By 1893 I am assuming one reason people came from Ireland to the US because some of their relatives were already here. 

One theory I have is he moved to Lancashire England and was a servant for a while. I see a record of his name being there aroung 1888 with a date of birth approx 1851 and being from County Mayo.  I don't see how the county mayo makes sense if he married/lived in Doneraile.  But I do see a record of Ellen O'Brien (his wife, my GGM) also working in that area as a servant. But then again Ellen O'Brien is a common name. So this theory is not so great.

Except my grandfather said his father (Michael) was in the English Army.  That was told to me many years ago and I have not been able to confirm it.  I tried to check into it thru findmypast but no luck.

Here in the US I have their gravesites near by in Lawrence, Mass.  One problem is no headstones. And his plot can't even be found but I am going to the cemetery again in the Spring. I have also done local research for his obituary.  It says John Harty was a pallbearer but I am not able to find out who John was or where he was from.  Its not clear if he was a brother or cousin.  There was another big harty family here (with John Harty's ) in Lawrence but we proved thru DNA to not be related.

Again, thanks for your help. If you have any other suggestions please let me know. 

Shawn Harty, Andover, Mass. 

I am a Harty from Clarina/Patrickswell/Croon, Co Limerick and we have a full family tree done. I need to get access to it for you. The names William and Michael ate strong family names in our line.
My name is Eleanor Harty , Wood Field, Elm Park, Clarina, Co Limerick.

Hello Eleanor,  please send me your tree when you have time.  I can be contacted on my direct email at hartys@comcast.net.

Once I see your tree I can tell you how or if the Harty's from Lawrence, Mass fit in.

thanks, Shawn Harty, Andover, Massachusetts