James O'Neil (Neill) - Born in Drummaull circa 1800

M Neill,

Regarding the O’ prefix to Irish names, that’s detachable and was often omitted. (It only means “of” anyway). Likewise the Mc/Mac/M’ prefix was also often detached. Neither was regarded as an integral part of the name.

O’Neill/Neill is a very common surname in the Drummaul (Randalstown area). 2772 of them in the county in the 1901 census. They may share the surname with the Shane’s Castle O’Neills but few would be related to them. (Their direct ancestry is fairly well documented in Burke’s Peerage. The Shane’s Castle O’Neills were originally Roman Catholic but switched to Presbyterian for a while due to marriage, and then later became Church of Ireland. They currently attend Drummaul Church of Ireland).

I assume James was born in the late 1700s. Drummaul Church of Ireland’s records only start in 1823 (and the RC records start in 1825). So neither set will be early enough for you.  There aren’t really any other records for the 1700s that might identify James from the information that you have at present. Possibly DNA testing may be a way of matching with others who have additional information about where the family originate. Family Tree DNA reportedly has more people with Ulster roots than any other company. That obviously increases the chances of finding a match. You might want to try them or, if you have already tested, you can transfer your results to them for no fee.

The North of Ireland Family History Society are running an Ulster DNA project and can offer FTDNA testing kits at a reduced price.  http://www.nifhs.org (Go to DNA project on the website).

Elwyn 

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It is much appreciated. 

Thanks for clearing up the issue of the '0 prefix. I guess that as records became more formal in the 19th Centuary, many families picked a spelling and stuck with it. Mine simply becoming Neill. 

I have a military record which states that James was 19 in 1819 so he would have been born 1800 +/- a few years. I did think it was a stretch to think i'd be able to find out more but as we all know, Geneology can be addictive so i thought i would try. 

I think that my best bet might be to seach more military records and see if i can find anything else out regarding James parents. 

Anyway, many thanks for your help. 

Neill81,

Glad to have helped a bit.

The idea of a single or correct spelling for a surname or a place name is very much a recent phenomenon designed to meet the needs of modern officialdom. Before that, especially in Ireland, there was no consistency. Names were spelled phonetically and each variation was down to the whim of the particular person recording the information. You will often see the spelling change as the records go back. This rarely indicates a deliberate decision to alter the name, nor even a mistake. Not everyone was literate, but even when they were, exact spelling simply wasn’t something they bothered about.

In Gaelic (Irish & Scottish) the spelling of a name and prefixes vary depending firstly on what case is used (eg genitive usually requires the insertion of an extra “i”), and secondly with a woman’s name, it changed according to her marital status. It is a further factor in explaining why no-one in Ireland worried about the “correct” spelling. There wasn’t one.  Here’s an example of the spelling varying within the same family in the same census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Sharvogues/Drumsough/920148/

Expect the spelling to vary. It was the norm.

If you make any progress in your research let me know. I live in Randalstown (ie Drummaul) and if you need any photos or a graveyard searched, l may be able to help.

Elwyn

Many thanks again for your reply. It makes very interesting reading.

I really appreciate your offer of help and I may take you up on that if I have further success. Most of my family appear to have been cremated so not sure if a burial is likely but you never know.

I will try and find out how the British army recruited and whether this was done in drummaul. James was 16/17 when he signed up so I'd have thought he'd have signed up fairly locally.

I guess I will also try and research what was going on in Drummaull / Randelstown around this time to see if that influenced his decision to sign up.

I read somewhere that there was a great rebellion in 1798 which may have impacted upon James parents.

Again, further reading is required on my part.

Thanks again for your help

Cremation is a very recent thing in Ireland. There’s only been a crematorium in Belfast since about the 1950s. Prior to that everyone was buried. Even today a high percentage still go for earth burials.

The 1798 event was the United Irishmen rebellion. Rebels in the Randalstown area took the small local army garrison in Randalstown prisoner. They held them in the courthouse (now Randalstown library) and kept them there for 24 hours or so. Then the army sent reinforcements. The soldiers were freed and the town burned, by setting fire to the thatched roofs. A number of locals involved in the uprising were killed. Most wisely fled into the countryside and kept their heads down for a while. The United Irishmen were effectively routed and ceased to be any threat to the Crown after that uprising.

Regarding joining the army, you could join pretty anywhere. Regiments moved around the country so people might join any regiment that was in their area. There was a garrison in Ballymena at one time. The main military headquarters would have been Carrickfergus Castle. Not sure where else he might have joined. But people form this part of Antrim often went to work in Scotland for the summer (gathering potatoes and fruit) and so it’s quite common to find them joining Scottish regiments too.

 I did a search for you and the best I can hit on is this recored. I tried to dig deeper but this was it. 

May or may not help. 

James O'Neil Town Residence Dromore Parish

Dromore Diocese

Dromore Year   1837

Thanks Elwyn - That's very useful to know about the culture of burials and hopefully can eventally lead me to graves of my ancestors. Interesting stuff about the rebellion. With James having eventually joined the British Army and not being catholic it seems likely that his relatives did not have much to do with this. Maybe this is naive on my part though. 

Being scottish, the scottish connection is fascinating for me too, I think it is likely James joined a scottish regiment as he got married in Edinburgh in 1818 to a scottish lady called Helen / Ellen Swan. His miltary records state he was in the 70th and then 74th regiment of foot before joining and spending most of his military career in the 36th regiment of foot. This regiment spent quite a long time in the army barricks in Birr, Offaly which i believe was burned down during the eary 20th Cenuary. I have found an army birth record of James son, John Neill, who was born in Birr in 1829 but subsequetly moved back to Scotland when he was a young boy with his mother and step father following James death. John is my x3 great grandfather. 

Chez - Thank you so much for doing this search. I really appreciate it. What is interesting is that i think that James died circa 1837 so this is a plausible lead. The only thing i wonder about, is whether, if he died in service, would his body have been returned to Drammaull for burial. I'll need to do more digging on this one. I found a "death at sea" record for a James O' Neil in 1837 which i have ordered from the national archives. Hopefully that will shed light on whether it is the right man or not. If it is, i think it is unilikey that his body was returned. I hope it was though and i can one day visit a grave in Drummaull. Fingers crossed.  Thank you both so much for your help......much appreciated. 

If James was in the army and died in service, he would almost certainly have been buried where he died. Returning him to Ireland was just not feasible in those days due to cost and the fact that the body would have been decomposing by the time it arrived. (They did bring Nelson’s body back from Trafalgar as you may recall but to do that they pickled him in a barrel of brandy. That was the only way to preserve the body. A rather expensive one I would have thought. For most sailors and others  who died at sea it was over the side in a canvas bag with a cannon ball to weight you down, and for soldiers who died ashore burial in a local cemetery was the likeliest outcome).

Dromore is some considerable distance from Drummaul (probably 50 miles) and O’Neill is a very common name so my guess is that the 1837 event in Dromore is a different man.

Hi Elwyn

Sorry I have only just noticed your reply. I think that your scenario regarding James death is correct. Probably overboard if at sea. Sadly my death certificate has not been able to be traced so it's unlikely I'll find out how / where he died.

I'm hopeful that I might be able to find a military record somewhere that tells me names of parents.

In meantime I have now received my DNA kit from ancestry so perhaps that may help my research.

Thanks again.

Drummaull / Randlestown is definitely now on my "places to visit" list.

Hi - Im back again and looking for further help if possible.

I have now managed to establish that James Neill did not die at sea. He died at Charles Fort Army Barracks in Kinsale in 1832.

So.......does anyone know what is likely to have happened to his body. I.e. will he have been buried in kinsale in which case I might be able to track down a grave. It appears his wife and kids were back living in Scotland at this stage so maybe the body was returned home and cremated. However, I dont believe James ever lived in Scotland himself other than when stationed there whilst serving.

Also, I now have completed the ancestry DNA test and winder how I can best use this to see if I am connected to any Neills or o Neil's from Drummaul.

As always, any help is appreciated

Michael

Michael,

I would say that James was buried in Kinsale, probably in a Church of Ireland graveyard. The military are most unlikely to have sent a body back to Scotland in 1832. That would have taken at least a week or more and it would have been decomposing. Not something you would do. There was also a question of cost. Soldiers died all the time, it was not routine to send their bodies home. That would cost a fortune. The norm was to bury them where they died. I think you can disregard cremation as that was unknown at that time.

Hello everyone,

I am so pleased to have found this site today! James O’Neil (Neill) is my 4th grandfather. I’ve posted another individual response to someone on this web site (and it came up through a web search) looking for relatives. I located an Old Parish record of his marriage to Helen Swan and I also found several regimental records. His son, John O’Neil (Neill) is my 3rd grandfather.

My great grandfather (and several other relatives) has “Neil” as his middle name.  

I have had my DNA done and am also on Ancestry if anyone was looking to collaborate. My direct relatives are from the Bathgate, Scotland region.

Michelle