Murphy family from Broagh

LK,

Statutory birth registration started in Ireland in 1864, so it’s fairly easy to trace children born to John & Sarah after that. I can see a birth for Bridget on 14.8.1869, plus Sarah 11.12.1871. The John born 13.3.1873 appears to have died on 7.6.1873. Sarah died 12.12.1871.

The twins Patrick & John are recorded as being born on 3.4.1873 (ie April). That doesn’t match the date you have (March 1873) which I assume came from baptism records.  The baptism records are probably more reliable.  Births were supposed to be registered with the local registrar within something like 3 weeks, but many people didn’t get around to it in time. If they were late there was a small penalty to pay. So what people did was simply change the date of birth to one that didn’t incur any penalty. That’s probably what happened here.

Regarding the re-use of the name John, if a child died it was common to re-use the name. They liked to keep the name alive, so to speak.  Having 2 children alive both named John has obvious difficulties (though I have seen it) so most people wouldn’t do that.  It’s most likely that the first John died before 1873. I see a possible death registered in Magherafelt on 23.6.1867 aged 4.

Deaths before 1878 aren’t on-line free yet. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

Looking at the places of birth and the father’s occupations, I see John was a weaver at Bridget & Sarah’s births, a labourer at the twins and a weaver again for John born 1880. All the births were in Broagh save for John (1880) which was in Drumard. So the family moved from Broagh to Drumard some time between 1873 and 1880. (The two townlands are very close together)

I looked in the Valuation Revision records but did not see John Murphy listed in Broagh or Drumard in the period 1864 to 1883. The occupations weaver and labourer are interchangeable. People tended to do labouring work in the summer and weaving in the winter when there wasn’t a lot of labouring work required. They usually lived in small single story thatched cottages on a farm. The farmer would be their landlord and they’d pay rent to him either in cash or by an agreed number of days work a year on the farm (after which the tenant was free to accept any other work available).  Their cottages were sometimes too poor to be worth valuing and so didn’t make it into Griffiths Records. Given that there were 3 Murphy farms in Broagh it’s possible that John was related to them had a small cottage on one of them.

If John ever did have land in Broagh, you would expect to see him listed in Griffiths. The Griffiths records for that townland were compiled in 1859, so if he lost the land, it probably happened prior to that year.

Bumping this in case LK didn't get the reply.

Thanks Elwyn, that is great information. I had come to the conclusion that they must have left Brough so I will now concentrate on Drummond. I think they would have been pretty poor and as he did not appear on Griffiths Valuation he could well have lost the land before then as you say. I assumed he was only a teneant not an owner as the other Murphy's were tenants. I am hoping they are his brothers but don't know how to verify this. Any ideas? I have looked at early census records but there is still no John Murphy that I can match up with him for sure as I don't know his birth date. Also the really early census records have parishes that I can't match with him for sure. The parishes confuse me. I will now have another look and see if there is a John Murphy born about 1836 (his wife's birth year) from Drummond in about 1880. His wife Sarah Scullion could have come from Drummond as I have seen that name a lot in that area. There are heaps of Scullions. the John who dies in 1873 would have been Patrick's twin. I have John and Patricks birth registration on 3rd April 1873 so if they were born 13th March 1873 like my records show they would have made the 3 weeks to register. I doubt they would have money to pay a fine. I have seen the John born 1880 but can't remember where so I think this is the second John in the family. Catherine and John were the only two of the children to stay in Ireland and the rest emigratedI have been told. So I think this John lived to adulthood as my family history says he stayed there. Catherine married Arthur Shivers. Thanks again for your help. Any other assistance you can give me would be wonderful. Can I ask where you found the birth records for Sarah and Bridget and the second John 1880? Unfortunately I was not not very methodical at keeping records early on, I have improved now. Thanks  heaps, Lisa

Lisa,

I think you can safely assume that John rented. Very few weavers in Ireland owned their houses. Land ownership was a vexed question all through the 1800s but it was largely irrelevant for labourers and weavers as they couldn’t afford to buy their properties anyway. Renting also suited them as they often had to move to follow the available work.

I’d certainly expect some of the Murphys in Broagh to be relatives but the Griffiths records don’t tell you how they were related. You would need to search church records in the hope of finding who their parents were. I am not sure that the Termoneeny RC records will help with that as they only start in 1837 and have significant gaps.

Gravestones might help if you are able to visit the local graveyards.

The oldest complete census for all of Ireland is the 1901. There are no census records for 1861 – 1891 and for the years 1841 & 1851 just some fragments survive. The 1831 census of Co Derry is mostly complete. There were 5 Murphy households in Broagh then:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughinshollen/Termaneeny/Broagh/46/  (Head of household is Frances)

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughinshollen/Termaneeny/Broagh/49/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughinshollen/Termaneeny/Broagh/51/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughinshollen/Termaneeny/Broagh/52/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughinshollen/Termaneeny/Broagh/53/

John Murphy’s wife Sarah Scullion is likely to have lived very close to him. People then mostly married someone from within a couple of miles of where they lived. Scullion is a very common surname in that local area, so that tends to support that too.

I am pretty certain that the discrepancy between the twins baptism date and their civil birth date is due to their late registration. The date that matters here is when they were registered. That was 7th May 1873, nearly 7 weeks after they were baptised on 13th March (and they were probably born a day or two before that). That delay would have triggered a late registration penalty. So the mother (who registered the birth) has clearly just moved the date of birth to an April date that didn’t incur any penalty. Parents did that all the time then. People in Ireland in the 1800s didn’t celebrate birthdays and many neither knew nor cared when they were born. If officialdom asked for a date of birth, they often just made one up. This seems to cause great distress and puzzlement to researchers today, who sometimes seem to see dates of birth as sacrosanct, but it was how it was. We have always had a fairly laid back approach to officialdom and bureaucracy here in Ireland and this is an excellent example of that in operation.

I think you’ll find there were 3 Johns in the family. I see 2 John deaths before the 1880 birth, so that all seems to fit.

You asked where I found the births of Sarah, Bridget and the 1880 John. The answer is the GRONI website (which I gave you a link to). It allows you to put in the father and mother’s surnames and then search for any children to that couple. That threw up the extra births.

Arthur Shivers and Catherine Murphy married in 1892. Both were residing in Broagh.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10641/5876946.pdf

Here’s Catherine and their 3 children in 1901:

1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Rocktown/Lemnaroy/1543143/

And in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Rocktown/Lemnaroy/609371/

There’s no sign of Arthur in Ireland in either the 1901 or 1911 censuses. Based on previous experience in that area, he may well have been away working in Scotland. Many folk from that area went there because the work opportunities were greater. Some went permanently, some for seasonal work. (I see a 40 year old Arthur in Dumbarton in the 1901 Scottish census. That could be him). From the index references, he looks to be living next door to his brother Robert Shivers, aged 44. Robert married Margaret Quinn on 25.10.1885 at Termoneeny chapel. In 1901, they appear to have 2 children. You can view those census entries on the Scotlandspeople site:

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

Margaret Jane Shivers nee Quinn looks to have died in Dumbarton in 1913 aged 53. GROS ref 496/139. Her husband Robert looks to have died in the same location in 1924 aged 68. GROS ref 496/176. You can view those deaths on the scotlandspeople site given above.

There’s a couple of Catherine Shivers deaths in the Irish indexes. One on 16.2.1939 aged 68 and the other 14.3.1941 aged 79. Both registered in the Magherafelt area. Neither is quite the right age but there were often big errors in ages on death certificates then. (The informant usually just guessed the age). You would likely need to view the certificates on the GRONI website to see if either is right.

I had a look for signs of John Murphy junior who may have stayed in Ireland but could not find him. Again, he may have moved to Scotland. Finding a John Murphy without additional information about his whereabouts can be tricky though. The name is very common.