Mary Ann McCoubrie 1864 - 1916 d. South Africa

Frank,

I can see a death for Janet McCoubray previously Muir, in Greenock in 1870, aged 33.

Marriage for Thomas McCoubry to Janet Muir in Greenock in 1860.

Thomas McCoubry 34, & Janet 24, are in the 1861 census for Upper Dunoon St, Greenock. He was a gardener and born in Ireland. Janet appears to have been born in Fife.

I see 5 possible children to this couple, all born in Greenock:

John McCoubra 1866

William McCoubray 1861

Mary McCoubray 1868

Thomas McCoubry 1864

Edward Muir McCoultrey 1863

I don’t see the family in the 1871 Scottish census so suspect they had moved/returned to Ireland, following Janet’s death perhaps.

John McCoubrie (Gardener) married Margaret Hawthorne in Lisburn on 6.5.1894. Thomas McCoubrie was a witness.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1894/10560/5846852.pdf

Here’s that family in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clifton/Ballycarry_Street/960335/

Thomas McCoubrie (junior) in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Cushendall/Moneyvart/923280/

I can’t see a marriage in Ireland for Mary, nor a death for Thomas senior. I also searched for children to parents named Thompson & McCoubrie born c 1892 but did not find any in Ireland.

Edward Muir McCoubrie married Margaret Jane Broome on 30.4.1897 at Clough Presbyterian church in Co Down. His father was Thomas, Gardner.  Edward was living in Annadorn, Co Down at the time (parish of Loughinisland).  Son Wm John was born 6.2.1898 at LoughEske in Co Donegal and Janetta Ann 18.2.1899 at the same place.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1897/10452/5805860.pdf

Lough Eske Castle is now a 5 star hotel but it was a private house in the 1890s and so I suspect Edward was employed in the grounds of it then. 

https://www.lougheskecastlehotel.com

The big estate in Annadorn was Nutgrove House, so I suspect that’s where he was working when he married.

http://www.nutgrovehouse.com

In the 1800s, Nutgrove House belonged to the McCammon family. This is them in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Rossconnor/Annadoran/1225849/

Interestingly, in the 1901 census, there is a servant named Samuel McCoubrie aged 20 and born Co. Down working there. Unlikely to be a coincidence, I think.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Rossconnor/Annadoran/1225849/

Samuel was born 23.10.1878 to John McCoubrie and Margaret McKnight of Castlenavan, Loughinisland.

There’s a couple of McCoubrey households in Castlenavan in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Rossconnor/Castlenavan/1225900/

This second one looks to be Samuel’s family:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Rossconnor/Castlenavan/1225880/

Ellen McCoubrie was born 21.2.1885 to same parents as Samuel. John McCoubrie, farmer, died at Castlenavan on 1.4.1894 aged 64. He and Margaret had married on 12.2.1875 at Clough Non Subscribing Presbyterian church. His father was Samuel Macoubrey, farmer.

This John McCoubrey was born c 1830, so of an age to be a brother to Thomas who married Janet Muir.

NB Non Subscribing Presbyterians don’t subscribe to the concept of the Trinity (ie Father, Son & Holy Ghost). They believe in a single “unity” and so are often known as Unitarians. Clough NSP has baptism & marriage records starting in 1792. There’s a copy in PRONI.

The McCoubrey name, location (ie Co Down) and Presbyterian denomination point strongly to them being descendants of Scots who settled in Co Down in the 1600s.  There was a massive migration of well over 100,000 Scots to that part of Ireland in that century.

Probate abstract from the PRONI wills site.

McCoubrie Edward Muir of "Kia Ora" Circular Road Whiteabbey county Antrim gardener (retired) died 21 June 1943 Administration Belfast 10 January to Jeanetta Anna McCrea widow. Effects £1000.

I can confirm that Northern Ireland can easily be seen from Scotland, though not I think from Greenock which is way up the River Clyde, and round a corner. But Ireland is easily seen not too far away, further down the Scottish coast, from places like Troon or Ayr. At the closest point (The Mull of Kintyre) it’s only about 11 miles across to Ireland. The quickest ferry crossing these days is probably from Ballycastle in Co. Antrim to Campbeltown in Argyll which takes 45 minutes. Folk have been going back and forth for thousands of years. In the 1800s there were daily sailings from Belfast to Greenock & on to Glasgow and tens of thousands of folk made that journey in both directions every year.

Elwyn,

Thanks so much for all your extensive research on this subject.  I must shortly take some time out and absorb the full content.  I'm sure I'll be back to you after I have digested it all.

Much Appreciated,

Hi Elwyn
I have had a break through that has completely changed my direction. On the website www.genealogy.com there is a 2002 narrative recorded by Bob Hunsley and replying post from Niall McCoubrie that matches the emigration story of Mary Ann McCoubrie and John Thompson to South Africa and the abandoned son. It gives the Mary's parents as James McCoubrie and Sarah Plunkett Drumaghlish/Rademon in the Ballynahinch area near Crossroads Mary date of baptism was 04/12/1864. I think a Google search of McCoubrie and genealogy com will generate the message board in question.. Before I speak to the South African descendants you might please review and give me your thoughts
Thanks
Frank

Hi Elwyn
I have had a break through that has completely changed my direction. On the website www.genealogy.com there is a 2002 narrative recorded by Bob Hunsley and replying post from Niall McCoubrie that matches the emigration story of Mary Ann McCoubrie and John Thompson to South Africa and the abandoned son. It gives the Mary's parents as James McCoubrie and Sarah Plunkett Drumaghlish/Rademon in the Ballynahinch area near Crossroads Mary date of baptism was 04/12/1864. I think a Google search of McCoubrie and genealogy com will generate the message board in question.. Before I speak to the South African descendants you might please review and give me your thoughts
Thanks
Frank

Frank,

Regarding the change of parents, do you have a death certificate for Mary Ann McCoubrie? If so, what parents names does it give?

I can see a marriage for James McCoubrie to Sarah Plunkett on 5th March 1864 at Kilmore Presbyterian church. James was a flax dresser from Drumaghlis and Sarah was a servant from Rademon.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11598/8268101.pdf

According to the 1911 census they had 9 children of which 8 were still alive that year. I can find the following children in GRONI's rtecords. There were evidently more:

Robert 25.2.1867

Male (no name) 8.8.1869

Elizabeth 10.4.1873

James 16.7.1880

Thomas 17.8.1882 born Drumaghlis

This looks to be James & Sarah in 1901, by then living in Rademon:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Kilmore/Rademon/1225692/

And in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Kilmore/Rademon/234968/

I can’t see a Mary born to those parents, nor obviously does it help find a marriage for her, to Jock Thompson.

I can see that Martha Humphries was born to John Humphries and Martha McCoubrie and that Charlotte Isabella Blake was born to James Blake and Sarah Margaret McCoubrie. This account of the family by Bob Hunsley mentions 10 children but no Mary:

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/regional/countries/topics/ireland/43744/

Hi Elwyn,

The details you've have come up with match my information.  In fact Bob Hunsley recently sent me the whoble tree on the Family Tree Maker programme.  Amy the person in South Africa from whom the request came via my brother in law explained to me recently that the huge motivation to discover the family heritage is because her mother, Maureen,  is hoping to establish that her Grandfather, Mary Ann and John Jock's son, Thomas Victor Thompson was born in Ireland.  Maureen is hoping to gain Irish citizenship. This is proving an extremely difficult task given as you have noted above the records are sparse with regard to Mary Ann, John Jock and also Thomas Victor. To establish some linkeage would mean: finding 1.a birth certificate for Thomas Victor and  2.a marriage certificate for Mary Ann and John Jock  Thomas Victor's birth is supposed to have occurred a few days before arrival of the ship at Capetown.  I have sent a request to the GRO in Roscommon and await a reply but the indexes for 1891 to 1893 did not show any evidence of a sea birth for Thomas Victor. No marriage record either for Mary Ann and John Jock has been uncovered in South Africa.  Thanks again for all your help to date.  Any ideas you might have re the above would be much appreciated.

Thomas Victor's Death Certificate and Marriage Certs can be view on Familysearch.org.  I simply used search term Thomas Victor Thompson and Location: South Africa. Also there, is a Marriage Cert for Thomas Victor.

Thanks,

Frank

Frank,

If I understand correctly you are now saying that 2 sons weren’t left behind in Ireland and that instead one (Thomas Victor Thompson) was born at sea en route to South Africa. Is that correct?

If Thomas Victor Thompson was born at sea, then his birth may not be registered in Ireland.  It may have been registered with the British authorities in South Africa, and if so, could be in the overseas births section at the GRO in Southport, England. (Bear in mind that Ireland didn’t exist as a separate country until 1922 and so in the 1890s the Thompson family were British for nationality purposes, not Irish).

This link may explain a bit of background:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/birth-marriage-death-sea-or-abroad/

I am not an expert on nationality law. You probably need a specialist immigration lawyer for reliable advice if you find a birth certificate. However I am fairly sure that under UK law, a grandparent’s birth in the UK (which of course includes Northern Ireland) isn’t sufficient to get a passport. Nationality only goes back 1 generation in the UK. However there are UK grandparents visas which allow some sort of residence rights (though not a passport), and that might be a fallback if all else fails. The Republic of Ireland does grant nationality on the basis of a grandparent being born in Ireland (and that includes Northern Ireland). But that might be the nub of the matter. If Thomas Victor was born at sea, he wasn’t born in Ireland, was he? (And it wouldn’t have been an Irish ship in 1892. It was probably a British ship).

If GRO Roscommon do not find a birth certificate for him, my advice would be to check the overseas birth section at GRO Southport. If you find one there, you could look at applying for a UK grandparent visa. But take advice from a qualified expert too.

Thanks Elwyn for all the trouble you've taken in this.  I will follow your advise and see where it takes us.  Thanks Again.

Frank

Frank,

My paternal grandmother was Janet Muir McCoubrie married to Samuel Johnston Connor.   Unfortunately Janet died in a Belfast Hospital on 8 April 1912, only 24 years old.  My father, William Connor, was born in 1907, his brother Alexander Connor was born in 1910 and Margaret Connor (known as Peg) was born in September 1911.   As you can see my Aunt Peg was only a baby when her mother died.  The 3 were brought up by their Aunt Ellen Connor, a spinister, she also brought up one of her sister's 3 kids as well.   They were brought on the family farm "Echo Valley", Upper Woodburn, Carrickfergus, County Antrim.  The family never spoke about her, or I was too young to listen.  My Dad never spoke much and when my mother died when I was 10 he didn't speak much about her, I expect it was the generation and also the fact his aunt brought him up.  I do remember her, seeing her when she was very old.  I am always talking to my children re the family.  I was born in Enniskillen, Dad went there as a butcher and met my mother, Mabel McCullagh, who was from a well known Enniskillen family.   I had one sister, Margaret Elena (known as Rita, as there was so many Margarets in the Connor family).  I believe a boy was either born or my mother had a miscarriage.  I came along 9 years after my sister in 1946.  My sister and her family came to Queensland, Australia around 1965 and in 1973 my husband, my 2 girls and my father came out too.  I will have to try to get my tree together before I get any older!

Fergirl

Hi Fergirl,
The reason I happened upon your ancestors who all seem to hail from Greenock in Scotland was because at the time my brother in law's relatives in South Africa claimed that their Mccoubries came from there. So by using the search criteria "born in Scotland" in the 1901 & 1911 censured was able to narrow down my search. However having effectively put the Tree together with the help of Elwyn it transpired that the Muir Mccoubries were not the correct line. A post written in 2002 by Bob Hunsley revealed all. I have however collected much data on your ancestors, some of which is included in the above post, if you wish to see it.
Regards,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Thanks for getting in touch.  I would love some more information of the McCoubries,  that would be very kind.   I have a cousin who starting his family tree and I  need to let him know what I have got.  His  Dad was a brother of my father.  My husband was actually born in Dunfermline, Fife so there is a bit of Scottish around our house!

Regrds,

Helen