James Kiernan Dublin

Dear Searcher, The first thing to do is to try to identify the baptism of Elizabeth, Margaret or Adelaide Kiernan

However, you will need to know what religion the girs were likely to have been baptised into.

If they were baptised Catholic, you will find a number of websites  online with some parish registers, 

As your grandmother was born in Dublin, its important to be aware that these appear on a number of different websites.

Irishgenealogy.ie has some, rootsireland.ie has some

But for the complete collection, try findmypast.ie

If the Kiernans were Protestant, then again, its important to be aware that many of Dublin COI records were destroyed.What survives are currently being digitised and when these go online it will open up more knowledge about our ancestors.

Good luck with your search!

I have not found baptism records for any of them. The names of Adelaide Kiernan and M Kiernan were found in the Society of Friends Quaker School in 1876 (FindmyPast).   Most records indicate that they were protestant - some showing COI and some show Presbyterian and Episcopalian.  All three sisters were married in protestant churches. Elizabeth married a catholic in COI and raised her children in the RC faith.  I can trace/track the information about the three sisters, but cannot go back to their parents.  Only info I can confirm is their father's name was James according to all of their marriage records. On those records, his occupation is listed as Salesman and Shop Owner.  I was hoping to learn more about him or, if at all possible, the wife of James.  It's like looking for a needle in a haystack!!!

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  If you have any other suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

Peg

Hi Searcher, This came to me I know not why,but anyway, I agree with Carmel.  I see that One marriage was St. Peters C of I and the other was St. Werburghs C of I  and also that it gave both of their Fathers (James)  I didnt find marriages for Adell or Margaret, but as whichever James it is, got married in 1850,, or was still alive possibly after 1864 Id look for some Deaths in Irish Genealogy regardless of religion.Also her sisters Marriages, (poss) also deaths, Her own Marriage, and hundreds of other possabilities Both churches have a Library  St. Peters is closed at the mom , not sure about the other also one James was a Printer and the other a Servant.  Short of time at mom but if you get stuck come back.   Best

Sorry Peg Your answer just came up between the time I wrote and posted that reply,  You are probably in a different country and possibly going to those churches is out.  Still the death certs are possible and there is always the possibility that Elizabeth was a late child and the marriage was ten years before, Peg, Im stuck for time tonight but Ill come back tomorrow and tell you about Irish Genealogy site in case you dont know ,  Best for now Myles

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/  Thats the site in case you dont have it, and just click Civil records when you have it  Best for now

Peg, as the family were protestant, then you will need to access Church of Ireland parish registers and as many of these were lost ( in the destruction of the Public Records Office in 1922) , then it is not surprising that you have not found the baptisms

The reason for focussing on the baptisms is to find out the name of James ' wife, mother of the sisters. 

Church of Ireland parish registers are held by the Representative Church Body Library , in the suburb of Churchtown in Dublin. Currently, surviving registers are being digitised and if you contact the RCB, they might be able to indicate when that project is likely to go online.  

However, do bear in mind that they cannot digitised what hasnt survived. But we have to travel in hope!

Civil registration began in Ireland, in a limited way, in 1845, wth the registration of non Catholic marriages.

So you  can now  search Irishgenealogy.ie for marriages from 1845, but your problem is , how do you select the correct marriage for your James Kiernan?  Of course if you find one that matches either a shopkeeper or salesman, then he will be of interest to youl 

And , yes, you can search for deaths .  Although they began to be recorded in 1864, they are only imaged from 1871. So if you find the death of a James Kiernan who is a shopkeeper/ salesman, again, he will be of interest. 

Peg, I should add, that of course the RCB library only holds parish registers for Anglican parishes ( in this case, Church of Ireland)

Presbyterian records are held by  the Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast. 

Quakers dont in fact baptise so there would not be registers as such for you to consult.  But, as you have discovererd, findmypast have digitised Quaker records as they exist. 

Hi Peg, You gave Elizabeths birth as 1852/ 1955 I assumed that she died at the good age of  103, but I didnt find any Elizabeths of 103 years .  There are lots of Eliz. Kiernans but I have no way of knowing one from the other, if its a case that you dont want to disclose personal details, I understand, if not then can you give an indication of where in dublin she lived. Either way you should try using Irish genealogy site , its free and contains a lot of info. The church records part has the two Marriages you mentioned.  Best Myles

Hi Peg, I did not find any sign of the births,I believe I found Margarets marriage to a John Conniff in 1872 , never found any sign of Adelaide assuming that James Married Mary Rasdell, James died in I believe 1865,and Mary Kiernan a widow married George Russell in 1867 , I had wondered why I had not found his death in the later years. also a George Kiernan a Brother of James Married Jane Rasdell in1855 a sister of Mary,. There is loads of info on the Kiernans mixed with the Rasdells. all Church of Ireland.  I also believe I found James birth in 1821 to Richard and Margaret Kiernan( Margarets maiden name not given)(thats a problem with Baptisms  a lot of the times)  As to James Kiernan and Margaret Breslin or Briselan there is very little apart from The wedding.  Best of luck with your quest. Myles

Hi Myles,

You are right - Elizabeth did not live to 103 !  She actually died in 1905 in Adare, Limerick.  (However, one of her granddaughters is still very much alive and in good spirits at the age of 102.)  Elizabeth married James O'Donnell in COI in Tipperary Town in 1873. They were both working as servants at that time.  They subsequently moved back to Dublin where the first few of their children were born. A few years later they were living in Adare.

Adelaide moved to England where she married and raised her family.  Margaret married in Dublin in 1873, raised her family and then eventually she moved to England as well many years after she was widowed.

,Though I have been fortunate to find a lot of information - using Irishgenealogy.ie, Family Search and Findmypast, I have a brick wall when it comes to going back to the parents of these three sisters.  I'll keep searching and hope one day to learn more.

Thanks for your help,  Peg

Hi again, just tried one last thing on Adelaide and found her baptism on the 30th October 1859 in St Nicholas without, father James Kierman (sic) and Mary no sir name given father a shoemaker which fits in with all the other info on the Rasdell marriages. I could not look at the origional ,so maybe it has her name. The home address is given as 76, Lr Clanbrassil St.              The records for St Nicholas catholic baptisms are on line but its Churchtown for C of I. They are quite helpful and I can honestly say I enjoyed the search, keeps the brain cells working.  Best Myles

Hi Peg, once again our messages pass like ships in the night, I think you can take it that James married Mary Rasdell I know I would and Ive been doing this for almost fifty years.  There are things you can do in Irish Genealogy that help and make it easier. What you said in that last note ties in with what I found.I  downloaded some of the things I found so if you dont get them I will find some way to get them to you but I enjoyed it and I hope you will too  Best Myles

Final final that record for Adelaide is in Irish genealogy church records I just put Adelaide in the christian name and nothing else and looked in the 1850s ,the father is written down as Kierman and not kiern an so it didnt come up in Kiernan If Yor not sure ot he spelling of a name or their ways of writing it down press down the capitol letter hold And press the number 8 and you get * whick can be any letter  if I had put in Kie***n I would have got it first time   Best again

Hello Peg,

I have been looking in www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk and came accross an article in the Dublin Daily Express dated 25th July 1861 on page 1. The article is about an attack on James Kiernan by 4 men when he was going to his home in Clanbrassil Street on the evening of the 2nd July after his day at work in the boot and shoe shop where he worked. The attack was very brutal and he died the next day (3rd July 1861). The article was put in by Rev. H.R. Halahan and Rev. Robert Stone asking for donations for James widow who was nearly full term with their fifth child. At the time the article was written three of her and James four children were attending the infant school of St. Nicholas.

I thought this may be your James as Myles has also mentioned Clanbrassil Street.

cheers

Hi, Can I come in on Pegs pages to say thats a great piece of info, I never would have thought of using it that way,although I read old newspapers from time to time once I start I keep going and nothing is done  Thanks Tennysongirl,  Myles

Hi Tennysongirl and Myles

Thanks so much to both of you for all of the information that you were able to uncover. It seems like I've been searching for information about the Kiernans for such a long time and have hit so many brick walls along the way.  I do believe that the info you both have given me strengthen the real possibility that this is the correct family. 

Tennysongirl, I used the link in your email to try to open the article about James Kiernan and the beating he received.  I was unable to open since I don't have a subscription.  If there is any way you could copy and send the article to me I would appreciate it. It would be very interesting to read the entire article.

As with most research, it is amazing how names are never spelled the same way on any two records.  I continue to search using varius spellings and hope that I'll be able to get the documentation and records needed.

Maybe all the time we have each spent during this Caronavirus pandemic has given us time to pursue the opportunity to research.  Thanks again for all the help.

Peg

Hi Peg,

I have posted the article about James Kiernan. It is in the 2nd column about halfway down the page under the article about Malvern House and to the right of MISCELLANEOUS in the first column. I found the birth entry for the unborn child in the irishgenealogy website. Her name was Eleanor Kiernan born 22nd September 1861 and baptised on the 6th October 1861 at St. Nicholas in South Dublin.

The newspaper archives are very useful and have been helpful in my searches. 

If you cannot read the article for some reason let me know and I'll try and fix it.

cheers

May I also add to comments great great work on this. 

Based on both those findings, I searched the parish of St Nicholas

Without and noted the baptism of Eleanor Kiernan on Oct 6th 1861.

The address for the Kiernans at time of baptism was 11 Malpas Street

The infant was born on Sept 22nd 1861 and that we can see

is two months after the death of her father., James in July 1861.

The pity is that because James died before 1864, there is no death cert

so no age at death. 

Although burial records could be checked ( many cemeteries in Dublin)

the likelihood of there being a headstone in these circumstances is low

But , now that you know the name of James wife, you could search 

for the registration of her death, hoping it happened after 1864. 

Attached is the marriage of James Kernan ( as spelt on the index) to Mary Rasdall in 1851

This  is on irishgenealogy.

It clearly names their fathers as Richard Kernan( Kiernan)  a printer and William Rashdall, a bootmaker.

What is also worth noting on this certificate is that an occupation is given for the bride,

Mary Rashdall was a book binder.

Clearly the families were Dublin artisans, who always tended to marry each other

It migth be worth searching for the death of Richard Kiernan/Kernan. 

Peg sorry  Carmel is right, With all my babble, I should have told you.  If You go into Irish Genealogy church records and just enter Rasdell and place Dublin,Search  the rasdell records come up, at the" sort by" click date. if you scroll down to 1851 you will see two entrys for the Marriage , click the second one,it should open a different page and if you go to the bottom of the pageyou will see in red ,"view the church record" click it and you will see a copy of the origional page they wrote on  its the middle one.Its not in all the records ,but it will tell you. If you click the first, its just the reference book.  If you knew all this already ,consideer it just someone rambling,(I didnt say old Man)  Best

Hello Peg,

I have attached a word doc with copies of a few articles re James Kiernan's death (they each have different details which may be useful). The only birth I found of a James Kiernan to Richard Kiernan is the same as Myles mentioned at St Pauls in 1921. I also found 4 other sons and a daughter all born to Richard and Margaret Kiernan all between 1821 and 1835. I Also found a death for a Margaret Kiernan aged 31 years in 1835 and also deaths for Richard their son and Richard Kiernan in 1836 all at St Pauls, which if correct woulg have made James an orphan at age 15. I also found a baptism for a Richard Kiernan 26th May 1799 to a James Kiernan and wife Mary at St Marys.

Only you can decide if any of these entries are relevant. Hope your research is successful.

cheers

Hello Tennyson,

Thank you so much for all the work that you have done and for the information you have sent to me.  I really do believe that this James Kiernan is indeed the one we have been looking for for a long time.  With the information that you and others have sent to me I have been able to search and find  quite a bit about the Kiernans.

James married Mary Rasdall and now we know they had 5 children - one born shortly after James died. All 5 children were girls so that was the end of James branch of the Kiernans.

  I, too, found the baptism of James and the namesof his parents and siblings.  I still have to sort through some of the details. There's a lot to read and sort.  What I did find interesting was some of the info I found about two of his brothers.  It seems that, not only did James marry Mary Rasdall, but his brother John married Nanette Rasdall and brother George married Jane Rasdall. Three brothers married the three sisters. In addition to that, all three brothers were employed at the Boot & Shoe shop. It also appears that the shop was possibly owned by William Rasdall, father of the three girls.  One more interesting note.  When I "Googled" the home address of Mary Rasdall from her marriage registration (3 Castle St),  there is a Boot & Shoe shop at that address today. (or at least when Google took the photo).  I wonder if it would there is any possibility that there has been a Boot/Shoe shop in that same location since the 1850s/ 1860s.

Thanks to all who have helped in my search.  Your kindness is greatly appreciated! 

Maybe I should appreciate the fact that everyone is under lockdown and is willing to give their time to help me on my journey!  Thanks to all.

Peg

Hi Peg,

Just got my Christmas cakes in the oven and sitting down for a bit.

So glad to help. It's quite exhilerating when you finally find something, even if it isn't always the best news.

Another hint I have found useful is to check out the people known to the person you're searching (in my case Justin and Lydia Hickey who were witnesses to my great grandparent's marriage). It helps as you find out what kind of relationships they had and if they showed loyalty, perseverance, stuborness or other traites to help you form a better idea of what they were like as a person (you even sometimes find you have many of the same traites). 

I didn't realise that 2 of James brothers had married Rasdall girls. Looks like your doing fine with your search. I can see if I can find any adverts in papers for the boot and shoe shop for you.

cheers Chris

Hi again Peg,

I looked for news articles re 3 Castle street and found nothing about a shew (shoe and boot) shop. I also found no articles on Rasdall's around that time frame. I re checked the marriage entries of Mary, Jane and Annette Rasdall and found the address on 2 of the entries was in fact 34 Castle street. So I re-looked. Still nothing on Rasdalls. What I did find was that 34 Castle Street appears to be a group of Tenements/Apartments from which different businesses appear to operate from;

In May 1850 a witness, Robert Lyndsay was carrying on a business of trunk maker. In June 1858 an advert for a Cigar Emporium operated by J. Brown and Co. (Cigar importers), In July1871 an extensive Bakery was operating by John J. Connolly son of the late Thomas Connolly. In November 1871 at the  inquest on the death of Dr. Antonio Bini (an Italian) aged 35yrs who lived and operated a practise at 34 Castle Street.

Just a few of the different business that operated from tenements at 34 Castle Street.

I have attached an article dated 1873 also, about an assault on a Mrs Emily Zambra (her husband Valentino operated a picture frame manufacturing business from 34 Castle street). The article shows the type of living conditions in some of the tenements and also mentions the landlords name which may be of interest to you. I have also attached 2 articles; one dated 1819 and the other 1872 to coroborate the fact that 34 Castle street is a group of apartment/tenements.

One thing of interest I noted was that Richard Kiernan's occupation was different on John Kiernan and Annette Rasdalls marriage entry (Bone Stores) instead of Printer. I'm not sure what it might mean but you may want to follow that up. Richard isn't a witness on any of his son's marriage entries which coroborates the fact that he was probably deceased. Hence the burial entry dated 16th January 1836 at St. Pauls is most likely correct for him.

Cheers

Hi Chris,

You have been so helpful and I really appreciate the information that you have found as well as the paths you suggested I follow to find other information.  I've been able to add a number of people and facts to my husband's family tree. 

Now, I'm hoping you might be able to help me again.  Through Ancestry DNA matching, I have been able to confirm that his grandmother, Elizabeth Kiernan O'Donnell, had two sisters -- Margaret and Adelaide.  I know who and when they married and when they died. I have info on their children as well.  In fact I've been able to connect them to the younger two sisters -- Mary Jane (b, 1857)  and also Eleanor (she was born in 1861 after her father James was beaten and died).  Several records for these Mary Jane & Eleanor include the names of Margaret's family - some were witnesses for Baptism & Marriage.

However, I have not been able to locate any Baptism records for Elizabeth, Margaret or Adelaide Kiernan using a variety of spelling for their surname.  Most records for Kiernan family show Baptisms and/or Marriage at St. Werburgh or St. Nicholas Without for the1850s and 1860s.  (Later records show a few additional churches)

I have used Irishgenealogy.ie, Findmypast, FamilySearch and Ancestry without success for the three sisters.  To the best of my knowledge, using various records, I believe they were born some time between 1852 and 1857 and they must have been the first of the five children born to James Kiernan and Mary Rasdell after their marriage in Dec 1851.

Again, I thank you for all your assistance.  Please stay healthy and stay safe.  We here in Florida are trying to avoid being near people as much as we possibly can. Hope you are as well.

Peg

Hi Chris,

After reading the articles about the Castle Street buildings, I can certainly say that I would not want to live there!  How sad that the people lived in such awful conditions and were subject to harrassment by the landlord.

Thank you for sharing

Peg

Hello Peg,

I can only find 2 of the 3 girls baptisms. Elizabeth's baptism is under the name ELIZA KEIRNAN baptised at St. Andrew's (RC) on the 25th July 1851. Adelaide is found under the name Adelaide KIERMAN she was born on the 4th October 1859 and baptised on the 30th October 1859 at St. Nicholas With Out. Notice the different spellings of the surname. I cannot find anything yet for Margaret. 

The spelling is pretty typical. I found my great grandmother had 3 sister's after I finally found her. Her surname was recorded as Jennesson not Tennyson. I trolled and opened every entry until I found her. I was lucky her name Martha isn't quite as common. 

Seeing as Elizabeth was registered as Eliza perhaps Margaret had a shortened name or pet name. It may have even been a middle name. Perhaps the family moved somewhere else for a short while as it wasn't a very good time in Ireland around that time with the potato famine etc.

cheers 

As Myles discovered, Adelaides baptism took place in 1859 in the church of St Nicholas Without

However, the surname was wrongly spelt.

This baptism is to be found on irishgenealogy.ie Church Records. 

The newspaper article about the predicament of the family after

the killing of James Kiernan mentioned that the family had

stayed in the same parish. That is actually unusual for the time.

People moved around the city, a great deal. Life was hard for Dubliners

there was no purpose built housing for the working class , ( unlike in Belfast or 

cities in the north of England). The homes of the once wealthy were subdivided 

into most unsuitable dwellings for the working class, which became known as tenements.

I do apologize. Myles did forward the information about Adelaide's Baptism so I was mistaken when I wrote my last comment. I should have only included Elizabeth and Margaret in my inquiry.

Chris, I did look up the Baptism record you found.  I'll see if I can connect this with any other info that I found since I have a few questions about this record.  The Baptism took place in July 1851.  James and Mary were married in Dec 1851.  Though certainly not an unusual situation, it needs a bit more research on this.  Also, this Baptism took place in a RC church and every other record that I found for this couple/family shows COI.  Again, not totally out of the question, but requires more research.

Thanks,

Peg

Myles here ,dropped in to see.  I have to withdraw Elizabeths birth from 1851. as they married in december 1851 and also when I looked up her death in 1905 she was 49 date given by her daughter Bessie which means born 1855/56 . I know everyone lies about their age until they are old but 1851 ? plus I dont get the feeling that this couple would have a child out of wedlock. On their marriage cert his parish is given as St Werburghs and hers as St Nicholas Without, St Nicholas appears tp be the one .                 Best Myles

Thanks, Myles.  The problem with the age given by her daughter for her death registration is, of course, the fact that so many people either didn't know their birthdate or they chose to show another date. The 1901  Census shows Elizabeth as 39 years old and her husband James as 40.  By the time of the 1911 Census, Elizabeth had died and James is 58.  Somehow he aged 18 years in a span of 10 years. 

I will continue to try and learn more from St. Werburghs and St Nicholas.  Maybe I might luck out and find information about the school at St. Nicholas.  According to the article in the Daily Express about the death of James, three of their chldren were enrolled in the Infant school.

Peg

In terms of age for Elizabeth, the documented evidence you have puts her birth between 1856 ( suggested by age at death ) and  1862 ( based on age in 1901 Census)

I think the age in the Census can be discarded as way too young. Elizabeth married in 1873 and if she was born in 1862 as suggested by the Census , then she would have been 11 years old when she married. 

If Elizabeth was born in 1856 ( as per age recorded at death) then she would have been 17 when she married in 1873.

If you view the marriage record you will see that the clergyman  recorded that Elizabeth was of full age, meaning in September 1873, Elizabeth was aged over 21.  If she was 17, he would have recorded her as being a minor.  The evidence from Elizabeth's marriage record indicates that  she was born before 1852. 

As to whether the baptism of 1851 is possible, it is such a pity the mother's maiden name was not recorded, which would provide certainty. 

Regardless of where Elizabeth was baptised, later in life, she seems to have been Catholic. Although marrying in the Church of Ireland in Tipperary, by 1901, James and Elizabeth and all of their children are recored in the Census as being Catholic. And as you may know, James and Elizabeth had at least two of their children baptised Catholic ( Mary 1888) and James (1889). 

Hi Again, Carmel, I wouldnt argue one bit with what you say there , makes perfect sense, I had a look at St.Andrews 1851 record and there wasnt a sign of it there, ( although I have often had this problem with St Andrews) but possibly its in the other St Andrews which I believe is Cof I although Ive never checked it out.. I,myself would be looking from 1850 but I dont think I would be looking in catholic churches as the parents didnt seem to be turning, although Elizabeth did , but then Love does strange things to people, also in the age bit Margaret was born in 1898/9 . Unlikely that Elizabeth was almost 50 possibly 45 more likely, also I have come across lots of times when a girl, or boy have said they were the right age and then found out later that they were not.             Peg  dont think Id be chasing the school as the only thing it tells you is their name and you know that, I was wondering was Elizabeths husband (james) mother a Reily  Best Myles       

Hi, again again,,just going through my notes,cant read my own writing came across this Mary Jane Kernan,61 Clanbrassil st.of James and Mary  St. Nicholas W out. Born 23-6-1857 Bapt.23-8-1857 Dont know if you already have it in ,havent read all those above , I just checked its in Irish Gen. Church records. sort of strangey funny that some of the others are coming up and not the first.  Maybe as it was the first she went to her mother for the birth or a hospital  or some of the entries in the church records are impossible to read ,try Glendalough, watered down ink.  rambling   Best Myles

Hi Peg, Just noticed that you have talked up a storm, there is a lot of entries above. good for you,   Best Myles

Hi Peg,

I think anything is possible. I noted that James Kiernan and Mary Rasdell the parents of the girls were married (COI) not (RC) in Church Records in irishgenealogy.ie. James' brother John Kiernan who married Nanette Rasdell on the other hand is recorded under Civil Records. The other brother George who married Jane Rasdell in 1858 is also recorded as married at St. Werburghs (COI). 

It may have depended who would marry of baptise them. Not all priests were accomodating. Food for thought.......

cheers

Hi Tennysongirl, in fairness to RC priests,they had a large flock to manage,and some were more efficient than others and also they more than likely had a creak in their neck from looking over their shoulder, making sure that what they wrote down was safe and didnt fall into the wrong hands.  It was a different world then   Best Myles

No offence meant Myles. It was a difficult time I know. Showing the fact that we need to consider all angles that was all.

Cheers

Hi TG, Absolutely no offence taken, I am prob their biggest critic, a woman has a baby, and somehow it becomes Tom and Mary Byrnes ,The only time she gets a mention is when they Marry, and my thinking is not for genealogical reasons,  and loads more, but I still have to remember Im in my shoes and not theirs.   Best Myles

In relation to the baptism of an Eliza Keirnan to parents James and Mary in St Andrews in 1851, the evidence suggests this is not your ancestors; family, Peg.

There are  four childen baptised to a James and Mary Keirnan ( and variants) in this parish from 1845;

MaryKernan ( 1845)

Edward Kearnan ( 1849)

Christopher  Kearnan ( 1850 

Eliza Keirnan (1851)

At no stage do the records show a maiden name for the mother

However, the records show the marriage of a James Kernan to a 

Mary WHITE  in this parish in 1844 

It would look as if these four children were those of a Mary White and a James Kiernan ( of whatever spelling_)

Although its always nice to have the birth/baptismal record for your own direct ancestor, sometimes, frustratingly,

they can elude us, for whatever reason. But the main purpose for recommending finding your ancestor's baptism was in order to learn the name of her mother, wife to James. That has now been established, as Mary Rasdell and a whole cascade of wonderful information as well, from many different sources. 

When I posted my initial comments just a few weeks ago, I had only a little information about the family of my husband's grandmother, Elizabeth Kiernan O'Donnell.  I knew her father's name was James from her marriage record; I knew she likely had two sisters who we have learned about through Ancestry DNA; I knew she was born in Dublin.

Thanks to all who have helped with details and records and suggestions. Using this information, I have been able to learn so much more about the Kiernan family.  Although I have yet to find definite birth or baptism records for Elizabeth and her sister Margaret, many records found for other family members do have surnames, addresses and other info that make all these family connections.

And, best of all, I know I am on the right trail!  Hopefully one day I might still find those elusive records for Elizabeth and Margaret. 

Again, thank you all for your time and energy to aid in my search. 

Peg