Mary Collins Saunders

Hello Mary Ann,

Do you have the 1832 baptism record for Michael and Mary's son William? If not I can send it to you, with additional information found in a copy of the original baptism record.

Regards,

Dave Boylan

Dave,

Thank you so mucfh. I do have a copy of the original sent to me from Connecticut by a Saunders cousin.

We are stumped on Michael, who were his parents, did he have siblings. Also, who were Mary's parents, and 

did she have siblings. 

Cheers,

MaryAnn McLean

Irishgenealogy.ie has the following baptism for a Michael Sanders, baptized in 1802. There are siblings as well--you can search irishgenealogy for free to see their records.

Area - CORK & ROSS (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CORK - SOUTH PARISH
Baptism of MICHL SANDERS of SCABEG on N/R December 1802

Name MICHL SANDERS
Date of Birth N/R N/R N/R
Address SCABEG
Father JNO SANDERS
Mother BETTY DRISCOL
Further details in the record
Sponsor 1 JOS KEEFF
Sponsor 2 DIANA MCCARTHY
Recorded Parochial Area ST. FINBARR'S STH, CORK
About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier Image Filename
N/R N/R N/R CR-RC-BA-54394 cork & ross.st. finbarr's sth, cork.p4778.00377
View the church register page containing this record.

Thank you but I don't think that is Michael. His headstone in Prince Edward Island, Canada said he was from Fermoy,

Hello MaryAnn,

There are no civil registration birth, marriage, or death records for all religious denominations in Ireland prior to the year 1864. This means genealogists and family historians have to rely on existing church parish registers to see if their ancestors were recorded.

If either Mary Collins or Michael Saunders had been born in Fermoy, County Cork, there will not be Catholic Church baptism records for them or marriage records for their parents. According to the National Library of Ireland website link, the Fermoy Catholic baptisms and marriage are not available until the year 1828. See: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0051

The subscription RootsIreland website however, has Fermoy baptism transcriptions from 1827 and Fermoy Workhouse baptisms from the year 1800. I don’t know how comprehensive the Fermoy Workhouse baptism records are.

I do not have a subscription to RootsIreland, but what you can do at this point is post another message to Ireland Reaching Out and ask one of the volunteers with a subscription to RootsIreland if they can search the Fermoy Workhouse baptisms for Mary Collins and Michael Saunders, on the chance their baptisms were recorded in the Fermoy Workhouse.

The other thing you can do is tie into one of the RootsIreland subscription packages. There are subscriptions available for 1 day, 1 month, 6 months, and 1 year. You can view costs for subscriptions in U.S. Dollars, Euros, or GBP (Great Britain Pounds) See: https://rootsireland.ie/ifhf/subscribe.php

One of the challenges with this type of research is, if you don’t know who Michael and Mary’s parents were beforehand, you cannot be entirely sure if you have found the Mary Collins or Michael Saunders in your direct line if more than one Mary Collins and more than one Michael Saunders had been baptized around the same time in the same town or city or parish.

MaryAnn, if you can access William’s 1832 baptism record, which you say you already have, I’d like to go over it with you.

When I first located William’s baptism transcription at the Find My Past (FMP) website, I was a little surprise to see he was not baptized in Fermoy, as I had suspected, but in Mitchelstown, County Cork.

According to a Google Map, Mitchelstown, by the shortest modern day route, is about 10 ½ miles north of Fermoy. See the map at: https://is.gd/A0o49t

The 25 January 1832 baptism record for William Saunders shows that his godparents were Wm (William) Collins and Mary, whose last name appears to be Dongan. To the right of Mary Dongan’s name, you’ll see the notation, “Geo - St.” This is a reference to Georges Street in Mitchelstown where William and his parents were living when the baptism took place.

To the right of the notation for Geo - St is another notation, in Latin, “Illegitumat,” which means that Michael and Mary were not married at the time William was baptized in 1832.

In your first post to Ireland Reaching Out, you had mentioned that Michael and Mary were married in Cork in 1831. Do you have their marriage record so that I can tale a look at it. I didn’t find their marriage record in either Fermoy or Mitchelstown.

The National Library of Ireland shows that Mitchelstown Catholic baptisms are available from 1 January 1792, and marriage from 7 January 1822. See: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0081

Next I located an Ordnance Survey Map of Mitchelstown from the 1837 to 1842 time period showing the location of George’s Street where the Saunders family had lived in 1832, as well as the location of the R.C. Chapel where William was likely baptized. The map, from the GeoHive website, is attached to this reply.

George’s Street on the map is indicated by the red teardrop marker. The R.C. Chapel is toward the right of Cork Street and New Market Square. On the Cork Street side of the R.C. Chapel you’ll see the location of the “Grave Yard.”

According to the Mitchelstown Catholic Parish website, the R.C. Chapel was originally called St. Fanahan’s until 1854, but was renamed Our Lady Conceived Without Sin. See the parish website link at: http://www.mitchelstownparish.ie/about_our_parish.html

If you compare the location of the R.C. Chapel in the Ordnance Survey Map of Mitchelstown, with the location of Our Lady Conceived Without Sin on a Google Map of Mitchelstown, you’ll see they are in the same place, or near the same place off Church Hill: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2661747,-8.2682449,18z

For a Google Street View of Our Lady Conceived Without Sin Church and graveyard see: https://is.gd/HLKIn9

When Michael, Mary, and William emigrated, they likely embarked from the port at Cobh, which is south of Mitchelstown and Fermoy. See the Google Map at: https://is.gd/gXn2k3

The name Cobh was changed to Queenstown in the 1840s during the Great Irish Famine to honor Queen Victoria of Great Britain, as Ireland at the time was under British rule.

For more information about Cobh, go to the Wikipedia article at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobh

There’s the possibility that Michael and Mary had left relatives behind in Ireland when they emigrated to Canada. To see if either Michael or Mary may have had relatives in Mitchelstown, I looked for any Saunders or Collins in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation. I specifically wanted to see if there were any Saunders or Collins living on George’s Street in Mitchelstown as recorded in Griffiths Valuation.

GRIFFITHS VALUATION

Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for the Civil Parish of Brigown, Mitchelstown, and surrounding parishes and townlands in County Cork, was completed by the year 1852, twenty years after the Saunders family left Ireland for Canada.

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent on Gale Day for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the askaboutireland website link at: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

In accessing Griffiths Valuation for Mitchelstown I found that a Robert Collins leased two houses, gardens, yards, and an office. One of the leases was at 32 George’s Street and the other lease at 33 George’s Street. He had probably lived in one of the houses, while either family members of friends lived in the other.

Griffiths Valuation for Mitchelstown, Civil Parish of Brigown is attached to this reply. Robert’s leases are toward the bottom of the page.

The lease at 32 George’s Street consisted of a house and small garden, 17 perches in size. One perch is equivalent to 30¼ square yards. The garden was valued at 5 Shillings while the house was valued at 3 Pounds and 10 Shillings, for a total valuation of 3 Pounds and 15 Shillings. Robert would not have been required to pay a tax on this property as leases valued at less than 5 Pounds were not subject to the tax. In this case, the Immediate Lessor, whom was the Earl of Kingston, would have been responsible for paying the tax.

For more information see the article by John Grenham at the Ask About Ireland website link: https://is.gd/3aTzCT

Robert’s second lease at 33 George’s Street consisted of a house, office, and yard. The house was valued at 1 Pound and 4 Shillings. The total valuation for the property was 1 Pound and 4 Shillings. The garden was probably not measured due to its small size.

An office in Griffiths Valuation was an outbuilding, such as a barn, stable, blacksmith shop, piggery, etc.

There is no way of knowing if Robert Collins was related to Mary Collins Saunders just from the Griffiths Valuation record. He may have been though. Did Michael and Mary have a son named Robert when they lived in Canada? If so, that could be an indication that the Robert Collins who leased properties on George’s Street, Mitchelstown, was related to Mary. But that’s only an indication, not a certainty.

As an aside, in the 1881 Canada census at the Ancestry.com subscription website I found a 67 year old widow named Mary Saunders who was Roman Catholic and born in Ireland. She and her three adult children were living in New Brunswick, Kent, Richibucto. The children are 37 year old John Saunders, 23 year old Robert Saunders, and 26 year old Eliza Saunders. I don’t know if this is your family however. If so, Michael and Mary did have a son named Robert.

Your information shows that Mary Collins was from Fermoy. Collins was a very popular surname in Ireland during the 19th century.

With this in mind I suspected there would be a lot of Occupiers named Collins in the Fermoy Civil Parish, or Town of Fermoy Town recorded in Griffiths Valuation.

But I was mistaken. There were not a lot of Occupiers named Collins recorded in Fermoy.

Griffiths Valuation shows two Occupiers named Collins who leased property on Factory Walk, Carrignagroghera, Civil Parish of Fermoy. These are Patrick, and William Collins.

An additional Griffiths Valuation entry shows a Patrick Collins leasing property in the townland of Coolcarron, Civil Parish of Fermoy.

You can see Carrignagroghera, Fermoy Town, and Coolcarron on a Google Map: https://is.gd/wDR22Z

Coolcarron is across the River Blackwater from Carrignagroghera and the Town of Fermoy.

FACTORY WALK, CARRIGNAGROGHERA

The heading of the Griffiths Valuation page shows that Carrignagroghera was a part of the Town of Fermoy. See the attachment.

Another attachment shows that Patrick and William Collins held leases at 17 and 23 Factory Walk, Carrignagroghera, Town of Fermoy. The Immediate Lessor for Patrick’s lease at 17 Factory Walk was William Campbell. Patrick only leased 1 Acre and 24 Perches of land, but no house or outbuildings. The land was valued at 2 Pounds and 10 Shillings, which was the total valuation of his lease. Because he didn’t lease a house in Carrinagroghera, Patrick was either living elsewhere in another town, or in the household of another Occupier in Carrignagroghera. More thoughts on this later.

The lease for William Collins at 23 Factory Walk was comprised of a house, office, and small garden, but no land. The Immediate Lessor was Sir Robt. Abercrombie, Bart. (Baronette). The house and small garden were valued at 5 Pounds. Because he didn’t lease any land William may have been in one of the trades, such as a carpenter, wheelwright, blacksmith or farrier, etc., or perhaps a shop keeper or a pub keeper.

At 16 Factory Walk, you’ll see an Occupier named Thomas Clancy leased a house and yard from the Immediate Lessor named Patrick Collins. Patrick would been the Immediate Lessor, or middleman for the owner of the property who may or may not have been Samuel Perrot.

On the attached 1837 to 1842 Ordnance Survey Map of Factory Walk, Carrignagroghera, you’ll see just to the east is the location of the Calvary Barracks, and the East Barracks located in the Ordnance Ground. On the west side of Factory Walk you’ll see the West Barracks located on another Ordnance Ground.

A Google Map of this same area shows the former Ordnance Ground is now Fitzgerald Park, home to the Fermoy GAA (Gaelic Athletic Association), and the Fermoy Pitch and Putt Club: https://is.gd/BSULB3

The road to the west of Fitzgerald Park is Oliver Plunkett Hill. Oliver Plunkett Hill would be the former Factory Walk, as far as I can tell. See the Google Street View of Oliver Plunkett Hill at: https://is.gd/njhiLA

Oliver Plunkett is a Catholic saint and was the Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Plunkett

COOLCARRON

In Coolcarron, Patrick Collins leased a house, offices, and 16 Acres, 6 Perches of land, Number 11a, from an Immediate Lessor named Anthony Cliffe. The land was valued at 15 Pounds and 5 Shillings. The house and offices were valued at 1 Pound and 5 Shillings. The total valuation for Patrick’s lease was 16 Pounds and 10 Shillings.

In this case, the 11a refers to a map reference number rather than a street address as was the case with Patrick and William Collins at 17 and 23 Factory Walk, Carrignagroghera, Fermoy.

Patrick’s location in Coolcarron, can be found on an Ordnance Survey Map compiled for the valuation. The map is attached.

Number 11 is toward the lower right of the map. Above and to the right of Map 11, going clockwise are Map numbers 6, 10, and 13.

For a Google Street View of Coolcarron: https://is.gd/LlI6Xe

I suspect that the Patrick Collins recorded in the valuation for Coolcarron, was the same Patrick Collins who leased the land at 17 Factory Walk, Carrignagroghera, Town of Fermoy. I can’t prove this however. What makes me think this is that he did not lease a house in Carrignagroghera.

The valuation for Coolcarron, like the valuation for Carrignagroghera, Fermoy, was completed by the year 1852.

I don’t know if Patrick and William Collins were related to Mary Collins Saunders. They may have been if she was from Fermoy. Have you found any records telling you if she was born in Fermoy Town itself, or in another townland within the Fermoy Civil Parish?

I next looked for but didn’t find the surname Saunders in Griffiths Valuation leasing property in the Town of Fermoy or the Fermoy Civil Parish. If Michael’s family had lived in Fermoy earlier in the 19th century, they may have moved by the time of Griffiths Valuation in 1852. Or, if there were Saunders in Fermoy in 1852, they would not have been recorded if they were not Occupiers paying to lease land and houses.

Do you know if Michael Saunders had been in the military? The reason I ask is that Fermoy, like Mitchelstown, was a garrison town where British army soldiers were stationed.

Good Luck with your future research,

Dave

ATTACHMENTS WITH THIS REPLY:

George’s Street and Mitchelstown
Griffiths Valuation, George’s Street, Mitchelstown
Griffiths Valuation Heading for Carrignagroghera, Fermoy
Patrick and William Collins in Griffiths Valuation
Ordnance Survey Map of Carrignagroghera
Griffiths Valuation of Coolcarron
Griffiths Valuation Map of Coolcarron

SOURCES:

National Librray of Ireland
RootsIreland
Find My Past (FMP)
Google Maps
Google Street Views
GeoHive Ordnance Survey Maps
Miitchesltown Catholic Parish: http://www.mitchelstownparish.ie/about_our_parish.html
Wikipedia
Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation
Ask About Ireland: John Grenham
Griffiths Valuation Map of Coolcarron

Dave,

I am blown away at the research you did for me. I am overwhelmed by all the information 

A lot of what you said, (and I will have to go over it again), I did not know.

All I know is Mary and Michael left Ireland and arrived in Prince Edward Island, Canada in 1832. He and Mary settled in Fermoy which was later named Spring Valley. I had the original Birth Certificate for William now I just have to find it. URGGH. I also have to check with my cousins in Canada, and the UK and see if they remember who told us about Mary and Michael's marriage. Again, I will do a deep dive and see if I can find anything.  I just hope they did not assume Michael and Mary were married. Now I'm wondering if they either got married by the Captain on the ship that took them to PEI, or got married in PEI. I'm learning the hard way to cite sources. 

They had the following children. 

William b January 25, 1832 in Michelstown, died October 22, 1922 in Bloomfield, PEI, Canada

Helen b. September 27, 1833 in Spring Valley PEI, died November 13, 1898 in Indian River

W. John b June 9,  1835 in Spring Valley, died January 19, 1917 in Bloomfield

Wilbur b. June 10, 1836 in Spring Valley

George L. b August 10, 1837 in St. John N B Died April 21, 1809 in Newton, Massachusetts

James A b January 22, 1839 in Spring Valley, died January 16, 1919 in Waltham, Massachusetts

Jeremiah Michael b August 4, 1841 in Spring Valley died May 4, 1930 in Bancroft, Iowa (he was my great grandfather)

Francis Frederick b March 20, 1843 in Spring Valley, died August 19, 1915 in Olds, Alberta, Canada

Margaret Ann B April 17, 1845 in Spring Valley, died in Bloomfield

Matthew b March 20, 1847 in Spring Valley died December 7, 1926 in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada

Henry Albin born June 24, 1849 in Spring Valley, died in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

Peter born February 7, 1852 in Spring Valley , died in Charlottetown, PEI

Michael Alexander b May 9, 1855 in Spring Valley , died July 22, 1939 in Bancroft, Iowa

Again Thank you so much for doing this for me.

MaryAnn 

You're welcome MaryAnn, and thank you for your quick response.

Please let me know if you find any additional information concerning Michael and Mary in Ireland.

Don't hesitate to write with any qustions.

All the Best,

Dave

Hello again MaryAnn,

I've attached a copy of the original 25 February 1832 Mitchelstown baptism record for William Saunders so that you don't have to go looking for it in your files. There are two baptisms for February 25. William's is the second baptism of the two., located just about mid-screen.

Dave

Dave,

You are absolutely correct. I think I found Mary's Baptism Certificate in Ireland Catholic Register 1655-1915, Mary Collins, Baptism , 10 May, 1813, Cork, St. Mary 's, Cork City, Ireland. Diocese of  Cork and Ross. She was the daughter of Joseph Collins and Johanna Gleesan. I'm am pretty sure this is her.

MaryAnn

Hi MaryAnn,

Do you have an any records from Canada that tell you if the parents of Mary Collins Saunders were Joseph Collins and Johanna Gleesan? These records could include death records, obituary records, bible entries, family correspondence, or other written documentation about Mary Collins Saunders.

If you do not have such a record, you can never be sure that Mary Collins, daughter of Joseph Collins and Johanna Gleeson was the Mary Collins who would later have a son named William baptized in Mitchelstown in1832 and then move to Canada with Michael Saunders soon after William was born.

Or, if there are census returns that point to Mary having been born in 1813, these may not be accurate, but estimated. I have two great grandmothers from Ireland with the wrong years of birth on their gravestones. They were actually born before the years carved on their gravestones.

Also, of the 13 children of Michael Saunders and Mary Collins that you mentioned in a previous reply, not one is named Joseph or Johanna after Mary’s parents in the St. Mary, Cork City baptism register.

If Michael and Mary had followed traditional Irish naming patterns, the first-born son would be named after his father’s father and the first-born daughter after her mother’s mother. Not all Irish families, in Ireland or abroad, followed Irish naming patterns however.

But, if they did follow Irish naming patterns, Michael’s father would have been William and Mary’s mother Helen. Your information shows that Helen was born in in Spring Valley PEI on September 27, 1833, and died November 13, 1898 in Indian River. She would have been the first-born daughter and would have been named after her mother’s mother if her parents followed traditional Irish naming patterns.

For more information about Irish naming patterns, go to the irelandxo link at:
https://is.gd/YoiqJT

If you do have more information about Mary’s parents, other than the 1813 baptism record, can you send it to me?

If you don’t have other documentation showing that Mary’s parents were Joseph Collins and Johanna Gleeson/Gleason, I’d suggest holding off with placing the 1813 baptism of Mary Collins in your permanent file for now, as you wouldn’t want to spend valuable time searching the wrong Collins line.

Thanks MaryAnn,

Dave

Dave,

So I pulled out my 3 ring binder on the Saunders family last night and went all the way back to 1995, I also contact people working on the Collins/Saunders line. No one can figure out who gave Mary the middle name of "Ellen" nor could anyone come up with her Birth Certificate.

What I did come  up with is what I believe is a Baptismal Record for her husband Michael. I found it in the Irland Catholic Parish Registers 1655-1915

Michael Saunders

Baptim Age 0

Event Type Baptism

Birth Date 1801

Baptism Date 30 September 1801

Baptism Place Cork, St. Mary's, Cork City, Ireland

Diocese Cork & Ross

Father William Saunders

Mother Margt Dorgan - That is the last name of the woman who was a sponsor for Mary and Michael's son William when he was baptised.  I wonder how common the name Dorgan is in that area. I need to look into that. 

I will let you know if I come across anything else. BTW, I have no proof of anything on Mary. She is buried we believe with her husband Michael at St. Mary's Cemetery, Indian River, Prince Edward Island, Canada. Michael's name is on the headstone but Mary's is not. I heard that it was not common to put the wife's name on the headstone, but I don't know if that is true.

MaryAnn

Dave,

So I pulled out my 3 ring binder on the Saunders family last night and went all the way back to 1995, I also contact people working on the Collins/Saunders line. No one can figure out who gave Mary the middle name of "Ellen" nor could anyone come up with her Birth Certificate.

What I did come  up with is what I believe is a Baptismal Record for her husband Michael. I found it in the Irland Catholic Parish Registers 1655-1915

Michael Saunders

Baptim Age 0

Event Type Baptism

Birth Date 1801

Baptism Date 30 September 1801

Baptism Place Cork, St. Mary's, Cork City, Ireland

Diocese Cork & Ross

Father William Saunders

Mother Margt Dorgan - That is the last name of the woman who was a sponsor for Mary and Michael's son William when he was baptised.  I wonder how common the name Dorgan is in that area. I need to look into that. 

I will let you know if I come across anything else. BTW, I have no proof of anything on Mary. She is buried we believe with her husband Michael at St. Mary's Cemetery, Indian River, Prince Edward Island, Canada. Michael's name is on the headstone but Mary's is not. I heard that it was not common to put the wife's name on the headstone, but I don't know if that is true.

MaryAnn

Thank you MaryAnn,

The John Grenham website shows the Dorgan surname is most populous in County Cork as well as Cork City. See the following links from John Grenham: https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Dorgan

https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish.php?county=Cork%20city&su…

That was a good find in locating the baptism record for Michael Saunders showing his mother was Margaret Dorgan.

The 1801 St. Mary’s Cork City baptism record could very well pertain to your Michael Saunders, based on his mother’s maiden name, and the name of the godmother in his son William’s Mitchelstown baptism on 25 February 1832.

Also MaryAnn, I have never heard of it not being common that a wife’s name was not carved on a headstone. Maybe that was common to PEI, but I’ve seen gravestones where one spouse is recorded and the other isn’t. This was probably due to the family of the deceased having moved away, or not having enough money to have the carving done for the spouse who died later. That is a mystery in your case though.

Thanks again MaryAnn,

Dave

Dave,

Can you please do me a favor. When you get a minute, can you look at the original baptism certificate for Michael Saunders and see if indeed you think his mother is Margaret or Mary Dorgan.

Much thanks,

MaryAnn

Hi MaryAnn, The baptism record shows the mother is "Margt" Dorgan. Her first name is abbreviated as is the Father, "Wm. You can see this on the enlarged attachment. I hope this helps. Dave

Dave,

You are fantastic. May I ask are you a pro genealogist and perhaps in Ireland? Wherever you are in the World

thank you so much.

MaryAnn

You're welcome MaryAnn and many thanks for the kind words.

I'm not a professional genealogist, but have been researching Irish genealogy, my own, and other researchers with ancestors from Ireland, for about 30 years. I've ben involved with online researcxh for about 20 years.

I live in the U.S. My ancestors came from from four counties, including Cavan, Kerry, Limerick, and Roscommon.

I've been to Ireland many times visitng relatives and friends, though haven't been over for a while, as a lot of the older relatives have died, and the younger generation doesn't seem interested in ancestors that left for the U.S. back in the 19th century.

If you learn anything new about Mary Collins Saunders, I would very much appreciate an update.

Thank you again for writing MaryAnn. It's very much appreciated.

Dave