Where are people in Coolavehy listed in the Tithe Applotment Books?

Seashore:

By comparing the Tithe records for Kilflyn parish with the Griffiths Valuation head of household listing for Kilflyn, it appears that part of the area for Houndscourt were assigned to Coolavehy townland when the townlands were standardized around 1851. Check out Thomas Barry and Richard Baker.

 https://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/limerick/kilflyn.htm

Roger McDonnell

Hello Seashore,

The problem with the Tithe Applotment Books may stem from the transcription of the tithe books 10 or so years ago before they were digitized and placed online at the National Archives of Ireland and FamilySearch websites.

Of particular interest is an explanation of why researchers have difficulty finding ancestors in specific townlands and parishes. See the irishgenealogytoolkit link at:
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/tithe-applotment-books.html

Once you access the toolkit page, scroll down to the subheadings, "Where to view the Tithe Applotment Books" and "Republic of Ireland TABs." Also see the sidebar with the gray background below "Republic of Ireland TABs."

The sidebar talks about what you have already accomplished in that you identified your Tracey ancestor in Coolavehy in Griffiths Valuation, but not in the Tithe Applotment Books where Coolavehy appears to have been “lost.”

Indications are that Coolavehy would not have been a part of the townland of Houndcourt. The Ireatlas Townland Data Base at the seanruad website shows that Coolavehy was twice the size in acres as Houndcourt. Both townlands were in the Civil Parish of Kilflyn.

For instance, the IreAtlas shows that Coolavehy was comprised of 569 acres while Houndscourt was 250 acres. See: https://is.gd/fg2Shu

A Google Map shows that by a circuitous route along the R512 road through Rockspring, Houndscourt and Coolavehy are 2.9 miles from each other, though they actually are adjoining townlands: https://is.gd/zsJwNH

Also see the townlands.ie map and information at: https://www.townlands.ie/limerick/coshlea/kilflyn/kilflyn/houndscourt/

While Michael Treasy is not found in Coolavehy in the Tithe Applotment Books, he is recorded in Houndscourt. I’m not sure if you have this record but you can access the tithe index for Michael at the National Archives of Ireland website link at: https://is.gd/7vViU5

As you see. the tithes for Houndscourt were recorded in the year 1829.

You can view a copy of the original tithe entry for Michael Treasy in Houndscourt at: https://is.gd/zE1WPW

You’ll notice Michael Treasy is the first occupier recorded on Line 29. There are only two other occupiers recorded in the tithe record for Houndscourt. These are John Quane Black and Maurice Dineen. “Black” would not be John’s last name. Black is what’s known as an “agnomen,” Latin for “other name.” In this case Black refers to the color of John’s hair, or perhaps dark complexion, to distinguish him from any other occupiers named John Quane in the parish.

The other 12 occupiers on the tithe page were leasing agricultural land in the townland of “Kilcruig.” The name of this townland in the IreAtlas is spelled Kilcruaig.

Moving ahead in time, Griffiths Valuation for Coolavehy and surrounding townlands in the Civil Parish of Kilflyn was completed by the year 1852. Griffiths Valuation is from the Ask About Ireland website.

It's possible Michael Treasy moved from Houndscourt to Coolavehy between 1829 and the publication of Griffiths Valuation in 1852.

Griffiths Valuation for Houndscourt shows only three leaseholders, Thomas Gallagher, Patrick McCoy, and Joseph Sherlock. None of these men had been recorded in the Tithe Applotment Books for Houndscourt in 1829.

Was this Thomas Gallagher the son of Thomas Gallagher and Ellen Treacy?

A copy of the original Griffiths Valuation page for Houndscourt is attached, and shows that Thomas Gallagher held two leases. One lease, at Map Reference 1A, was for over 40 acres of land valued at 22 Pounds and 15 Shillings. The second lease at Map Reference 1B a, includes a house, offices, and over 159 acres of land valued at 20 Pounds. His house and offices were valued at 1 Pound and 15 Shillings. The total valuation for the two Gallagher leases was 44 Pounds and 10 Shillings. He would have paid a percentage of this value toward the tax. His Immediate Lessors were Frederick Charles Trench and Miss E.O. Gascoigne. More about Frederick Charles Trench and Miss E.O. Gascoigne later.

An office in a Griffiths Valuation record could be a barn, stable, piggery, blacksmith shop, or any type of outbuilding.

Patrick McCoy’s lease in Houndscourt consisted of a house and garden. The garden was 30 Perches in size and valued at 1 Shilling. The house was valued at 16 Shillings. The total valuation for his property was 17 Shillings.

You’ll notice that the Immediate Lessor for Patrick McCoy’s property is Thomas Gallagher. He would be the middleman overseeing the property for the actual owners who were Frederick Charles Trench and E.O. Gascoigne.

The last Griffiths occupier in Houndscourt is Joseph Sherlock, who leased a house, offices and over 40 acres of land. The land was valued at 10 Pounds and 7 Shillings, while the house and offices were valued at 2 Pounds and 13 shillings. The total valuation for Joseph’s property should be 13 Pounds, but it appears the Griffiths valuer who came by Joseph’s home made an error and wrote the total value of the lease was 22 Pounds. You have to wonder if Joseph ended up paying a percentage of the 22 Pounds or a percentage of the 13 Pounds toward the tax.

The map reference numbers in Griffiths Valuation refer to the locations of the leases on an Ordnance Survey Map for the valuation. The map for Houndscourt is attached. Griffiths Valuation maps can be accessed from the Ask About Ireland website.

You’ll see on the map the number/letter combination 1B, below which is the lower case letter a. All of this was Thomas Gallagher’s lease as far as I can determine. Just below the lower case letter “a,” you’ll notice two oblong structures. One of the these is the house and one the outbuilding that Thomas Gallagher had leased.

The 30 perches of garden that Joseph McCoy leased at 1lower case letter b doesn’t appear to have been large enough to record on the map.

Joseph Sherlock’s lease, in the upper right section of the map at 2a, is in the form of a triangle.

I’ve also attached another Griffiths Valuation Map, showing both Houndscourt as well as Coolavehy. On this map Joseph Sherlocks land appears to have extended from a smaller triangle to a larger triangle northwest of Coolavehy. This would make more sense as the size of his land on the lone Houndscourt valuation map doesn’t appear to be large enough to comprise 40 acres, when you compare it to Thomas Gallagher’s 49 + acres. But, you would need an expert on Griffith Valuation maps to determine the full extent of Joseph Sherlock’s land at Map Reference 2a.

These Griffiths Valuation maps can be a challenge locating properties of occupiers because of all the numbers-and-large-case-small-case letter combinations, as you can see on the map of Coolavehy.

If you have any questions about the extent of Thomas Gallagher’s lease in Houndscourt, or the map locations in Coolavehy for Michael, John, and William Tracey, I recommend contacting Valuation Office’s “Public Office - Archive Research/Certified Extracts” section. The Valuation Office is in Dublin.

For contact information: https://www.valoff.ie/en/contact-us/

The homepage for the Valuation Office is: https://valoff.ie/en/

The Valuation Office is located at:

Block 2, Irish Life Centre,
Abbey Street Lower,
Dublin 1
D01E9X0
____

Hopefully they will respond to any questions you may have about the Griffiths Valuation maps.

The last attachment with this reply is for an Ordnance Survey Map of Houndscourt and Coolavhey without all the Griffiths Valuation numbers and letters. The map was compiled between 1837 and 1842 and is from the GeoHive Website.

In Griffiths Valuation for Houndscourt and Coolavehy, you’ll notice the majority pf the Immediate Lessors for both townlands were Frederick Charles Trench and E.O. Gascoigne. E.O. Gascoigne would be Elizabeth Gascoigne. She and Frederick Charles Trench were brother-in-law and sister-in-law. For more information about them, see the landedestates.ie link at: http://landedestates.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2416

Kind regards,

Dave Boylan

SOURCES

irishgenealogytoolkit.com
IreAtlas Townland Data Base
Google Maps
townlands.ie
National Archives of Ireland's Tithe Applotment Books
Ask about Ireland
Griffiths Valuation Maps
Valuation Office, Dublin
Ordnance Survey Map of Houndscourt and Coolavehy
landedestates.ie

ATTACHEMENTS

Griffiths Valuation for Houndscourt
Griffiths Valuation Map of Houndscourt
Griffiths Valuation Map of Houndscourt and Coolavehy
Ordnannce Survey Map of Houndscourt and Coolavehy

Roger and Davepat, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question. Roger, I think you have backed up my hypothesis that some of the people listed under the townland of Houndscourt for the Tithes are the same families found in Coolavehy at the time of Griffith's. The townlands must have been considered as one for the Tithes. Perhaps it should have been called Coolavehy since it is much larger than Houndscourt, but for some reason, it was named Houndscourt.

Davepat, to answer your question, yes, Thomas Gallagher who is a resident of Houndscourt for Griffith's was the son of Thomas Gallagher and Ellen Treacy (she born in Coolavehy and son Thomas of Houndscourt born in Kilcruaig). By the time of the Cancelled Land Books, Thomas leased all of the land in Houndscourt so he became the only occupant-lessee of Houndscourt. After the last of his family left Houndscourt, a Drake took over the land. ...  Davepat, my information differs from yours on who lived in Houndscourt at the time of the Tithes. It seems as if you found three people living there, but I found 23 people living there. Houndscourt and Upper Houndscourt (#9-#13) are on the same page as Coolfree. #14-#28 are all on another page, and #29-#31 are on a separate page. That is how I found John Treasy Sr., John Treasy Jr. and Michael Treasy all living in Houndscourt.

I think that Houndscourt and Coolavehy were probably merged at the time of the Tithes and that they became separate by the time of Griffith's.

Thanks again for your input. Jan (Seashore)

I am not sure why, but this posting came up under both Limerick and Kilflyn. I have posted my reply on the Limerick board.

Thank you, Seashore

Headstone inscriptions for Kilflyn civil parish on historic graves.ie

Christina Irelandxo Volunteer.

Hello Seashore,

I’ve sent an email to the National Archives of Ireland to have them check the original Tithe Applotment Books to see if there is any record or accompanying correspondence about Coolavehy, which, as you know, is not in the NAI index of townlands belonging to the civil parish of Kilflyn, as you can see here: https://is.gd/R0PzTm

If I hear back from the NAI I’ll post another reply as soon as it is received.

Thank you for your quick reply and corrections Seashore. It's much appreciated.

Dave

davepat, first of all,  I also want to be sure you know how much I appreciate your taking the time to help. Although I have taken several trips to Ireland to do research at the various research venues, I am someone who likes to continue learning  about Irish research. (All eight of my great-great-grandparents were born in Ireland.) Irish research is complex. Your follow-up email triggered a thought that I would not have otherwise had. I had forgotten that I once found estate records for Kilcruaig and Houndscourt (Gascoigne sisters) in the Manuscript Room at the National Library. I went back to my notes and reviewed the rent rolls and found that in the 1830's the townland names seemed a bit fluid. 

I have a note that there were Treacys in Coolavehy in 1827 and 1828 so in this case, there WAS a townland named Coolavehy. ....................In September-November 1832 I wrote down the name of one of the towlands was Coolavehy called Houndscourt. At the time I was lookinng for Gallaghers so I don't know if there was also a Coolavehy or not. ............In 1834 I found a Coolavehy Houndscourt. ................ In the March-May rent rolls for 1834 (I was not allowed to use a camera at that time so didn't copy the names by hand) there were three separate listings: Coolavehie-Houndscourt, Coolavehy-Houndscourt, and  Coolavehy. From September-November 1837 there was a Coolavehie-Houndscourt and a Coolavehy.

It does seem as if the estate records listed separate townlands for Coolavehy and for Coolavehy-Houndscourt so that still begs the question: Why was there no Coolavehy in the Tithes for 1829?

I will be interested to hear the reply to your question that you have sent to the National Archives. Thank you for doing that.  Jan  (Seashore)

You're welcome Jan, I'm anxious to hear back from the NAI about Coolavehy as well. I've come across similar place-name challenges in past searches of the Tithe Applotment Books, and unfortunately these types of omissions do not appear to be unique to Coolavehy.

Also, I was surprised to see there were at least two Treacy households in Coolavehy in the 1901 census and three Treacy households in the 1911 census showing the family had had solid roots in the area for many, many years. The 1901 and 1911 census returns also show Gallagher households remaining in Houndscourt: and

To have survived the Great irish Famine and then remain in the area where you lived afterwards, had to be a challenge that would be hard to fathom today.

Thank you again for writing Jan. I'll send another communictaion as soon as I hear back from the National Archives. Hopefully, they'll respond in a timely fashion.

With Kind Regards,

Dave

Dave, I look forward to hearing back from you - if you get a response, that is. Eventually there were two single Gallaghers left in Houndscourt so the farm went to a cousin who then sold it to a Drake family. I am in touch with extended Gallagher family members who still live in Ireland and am now trying to learn more about my Treacys/Tracys. Thomas Gallagher, my great-great-grandfather, appears to be the only one male sibling who left the family home in Kilcruaig. He worked as a laborer - a herdsman as I understand it - for Mr. Sherlock. A local historian whose mother was part of the Gallagher family said that Thomas then inherited the Sherlock farm, but as I began to research, I learned that Joseph Sherlock emigrated so there was no inheritance after Joseph died. I could also see that Thomas leased the land of the other person who lived there before he acquired the Sherlock land. I am not sure how he could have accrued enough money to lease a farm if he had been a laborer (which I am sure he was). I guess it will have to remain a mystery. Best! Jan

Thanks Jan,

If the land in Houndscourt was acquired in the early 20the century, it may have been through two land acts. They are the Land Purchase Acts of 1903 and 1909. You can read about these acts at the encyclopedia.com link at:
https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-trans…

Still no word from the NAI. Usually, after sending an email to a government office in Ireland, they'll send an acknowledgement that they received the communication. But I haven't received an acknowledgement yet. I'm checking Spam too, as sometimes communications from Ireland end up there. The NAI could be short staffed because of the Covid.

As soon as I receive anything I'll be sure to send another reply.

Thanks again Jan.

Dave

Dave, Thomas Gallagher took over the land in Houndscourt between 1850 - when his name is on a House Book record for having a house in Houndscourt - to 1852 (publication of Griffith's for Houndscourt) when he is the sole lessee in Houndscourt. His son "paid in fee" in 1906. I have other families that bought the land in the first decade of the 1900's and have wondered if there is any way of knowing whether they used the loans you mentioned or if they paid without taking a loan. Not that it is terribly important, but it is of interest to me to know whether the loan system helped any of my familirs. Do you know if the names of people who used loans at this time to buy their land?

I would agree with you that the NAI might be short staffed and that is why you haven't heard. It's too bad there isn't an automatic response to people to let them know their email has been received.   Jan

Hi Jan,

Ireland’s Registry of Deeds headquartered in Henrietta Street, Dublin, may have information about the sale of land in Houndscourt and surrounding towns.

The Registry of Deeds has records back to 1709.

Links for more information about the Registry of Deeds are below:

https://www.prai.ie/registry-of-deeds-services/#records

https://www.prai.ie/land-registry-services/

https://www.prai.ie/registry-of-deeds-archive-services-and-heritage-sec…

There is also a Registry of Deeds Index Project, under the auspices of FamilySearch, which is a work in progress. I don’t believe indexes are yet available for County Limerick past the year 1828, but you can learn more about the project at: https://irishdeedsindex.net/

Contact Information for the Registry of Deeds: https://www.prai.ie/#contactDiv

If the Registry of Deeds doesn’t have the land sale or sales you’re looking for, they may know which government organization in Ireland that does.

I hope you find the land records you’re looking for.

Best of Luck,

Dave

Dave, I used to order films with memorials of deeds that had been filmed by the Mormons. I also did research at the Registry of Deeds on Henrietta Street in Dublin. I discovered that, for the most part, the Registry of Deeds held memorials of deeds rather than the original deeds. The memorials, though, do contain relevant information. Also, I can only speak for my own main eight families of great-grandparents when I say that most of my families who leased land in the 1800's did not have any deeds. Only one of my main lines had deeds, and not everyone in that family signed a deed either. I am not sure why the occasional person did sign a deed when land was exchanged. They were, in my family, the exception to the rule. Also the deeds were between lessor and lessee, not owner and buyer. Jan

Hi Jan,

In going through all the correspondence in the message board, I can see you’ve done an amazing amount of research, at home and in Ireland, into the Gallagher property in Houndscourt.

I can also identify with you going through films at the Family History Center, as I spent years at my local FHC ordering films, waiting two weeks for them to arrive, and then cranking the films through the microfilm reader, going bleary eyed as one page scrolled passed another, looking for specific records.

I am now wondering if Thomas or his son had claimed squatters’ rights over the property in Houndscourt. If the property had been abandoned it would make sense for Thomas or his son to claim rights to it, having lived there and farmed the land there for several years.

But, as you mentioned, how the Gallaghers acquired the Houndscourt property may remain a mystery without any documentation concerning the transfer of the land.

If you do find out please let me know.

Dave

I had a good chuckle when you described scrolling through films at the Family History Center. I suppose there are many ways Thomas could have acquired the land in Houndscourt. The local Kildorrery historian who is part of the Gallagher family said that Thomas inherited the land from Joseph Sherlock. This historian has had many nuggets of truth in the notes he left, but there is often a slight error. I would think that is Thomas was a squatter, Jack would have mentioned something along this line. I think the error in this case could be the name of the herdsman that Thomas worked for. Jack said he was a herdsman for Joe Sherlock, but Thomas lived on the property of Thomas McMahon so I would think he was a herdsman for Thomas McMahon. At the time of Griffith's, Thomas Gallagher had taken over the McMahon land so if by any chance he did inherit any land, it might have been the McMahon property. I never followed through to double check on the person who told me that Joseph Sherlock was his ancecestor and that he had emigrated to Chicago. I learned this in my early research days before I double and triple checked everything. Your questions have prompted me to look into Thomas McMahon to see if I can learn anything about him.

Thanks Jan, If you do find anything new, I'd appreciate an update on any records you find.

Best of Luck,

Dave

Dear Sirs

I have read with interest your ''macinations'' of why the area in question was not included in the Tithe Applottments. The actual answer to this was that the land in question was the property of the Church of Ireland and in my experience they did not Applot their lands.