Irvine/Irwin and Beggs ; Robert Kerr and Margaret Robinson

Sharonl,

Death registration started in Ireland in 1864. I searched the statutory death records for a Timothy Irvine death 1864 – 1900 in the Larne & Antrim registration areas but without success. So he had probably died before 1864, making him difficult to trace.

I also searched Griffiths Valuation for Co Antrim (c 1860) but there was no Timothy listed. I searched the tithe applotment records (1825 – 1835) for Co Antrim but no Timothy was listed. The tithes listed farmers so if he was not in them then that suggests he was a labourer or other trade without any land. Labourers tended not to be able to afford gravestones so that won’t help locate him either.

You are probably lucky that Timothy is a fairly rare name in the area. I searched for marriages of Irvines with fathers named Timothy and I only found 2. One for a William Irvine, of Braetown, Glenwhirry who was born c 1830 and married in Ballymena Register Office in 1854 (probably a mixed denomination marriage):

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1854/09463/5428886.pdf

The second was for Margaret Irvine born c 1817 who married David Nesbitt in Belfast Register Office in 1857. Her address then was in Belfast but of course she may have been born elsewhere.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

In both cases Timothy Irvine was described as a labourer.

Assuming these 2 marriages related to your family then that gives you some clues. Braetown is a rural farming area on the road from Ballymena to Larne. It’s about 1200 acres of upland which in the 1860s was divided into 4 farms. Presumably William was working on one of those farms.  His bride Margaret also lived there and perhaps that’s how they met.  It’s only a few miles from Ballyeaston and so I suspect that this William may be your family.

There is a tree on Ancestry for Margaret married to David Nesbitt. (Thorpe family). It shows Margaret’s parents as Timothy Irvine 1797 – 1867 and Margaret O’Hara 1798 – not known. David Nesbit died in Belfast in 1870 and is buried in Mallusk cemetery. Last address 13 Savage Row, off the Oldpark Rd. Margaret reportedly died in 1874. They don’t appear to have had any children. The tree lists 6 siblings including the names you have provided. Most of the children are reported to have been born in Ballynashee, Co. Antrim, save for William b 1830 in Eastwood, Renfrewshire. (That might be correct or it might just be an Ancestry hint which has been accepted without verification. I suspect the latter). You would need to ask the tree owner their source. However they also have him in the 1861 census with a wife named Jane not Margaret. So I suspect that’s the wrong William altogether. Likewise I don’t think the 1867 death for Timothy is right either. There’s no death record to match that. In my opinion he must have died pre 1864.

This is the death of a Margaret Nesbitt in Belfast in 1874 (the year given on the family tree). However she's a farmer's widow, and 10 years older than she should be if the right William's widow. I am not convinced it’s the correct lady. However the tree owners may have more information.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1874/020654/7247403.pdf

Ballynashee is a townland between Braetown and Ballyeaston, so that location fits nicely with the other information we have (ie Andrew being baptised in Ballyeaston, William in Braeside). It's on the modern Ballynashee Rd.  There were no Irvine homes in the townland in Griffiths Valuation but there were 3 Beggs (William, Robert & James) so that tends to confirm that Agnes may have come from the same townland.

https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

Numerous Beggs still living in Ballynashee in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Rushee/Ballinashee/

There are many trees on Ancestry with William Irvine and Margaret O’Hara. They seem to share much of the same data as on the other trees, so not certain of the accuracy of all of it again.  The Irvine/Bachelor tree places the family in Eastwood, Renfrewshire in 1861 where they reportedly had a daughter Jane Mcewing Irvine. I don’t think that’s the right family at all. Not only does the wife have completely the wrong name (ie Jane instead of Margaret) but she was born in Dumfries, Scotland, which raises the question of why she'd have been living in Braehead in 1854. So I am comfortable that William Irvine married Margaret O’Hara in 1854 but I don’t know what happened to them after that. I strongly doubt they are the couple in Eastwood, Scotland in 1861.

So I think your Irvine and possibly the Beggs family came from Ballynashee, but not all the information on those Ancestry trees looks accurate to me, so quite a bit of verification is required.

Any questions? Glad to help.

Thank you so much for all your work and sleuthing on this subject. Some of this is new, some confirming my suspicions, ie that they may have been itinerant (farm) workers and therefore not necessarily showing up in regional census etc. It did seem odd to us that only one of the family members showed up in Ballyeasten Church records: perhaps they were not living in that area when other family events happened. I wonder if there is a central database for all Presbyterian churches or should I try for individual churches in nearby areas? I have seen the name Margaret OHara show up previously but remain a bit leary (although the name Margaret shows up in subsequent generations) that it is correct although it seems to be accepted by others. 

For one thing, a record which I saw (but didn't keep or print,alas) showed Timothy and Margaret getting married in the church of Ireland, don't recall the date. But on reflection, it may have been correct as the Presbyterian church may not have been accepted in those days. I may have seen the same suggestion as you that Margaret Ohara  married William Irvine  and therefore, a daughter-in-law. I agree more work needs to be done in this area and like you, think there is room for some healthy scepticism around existing trees on Ancestry.

 One additional record that did come to light was a civil death registration for Timothy Irvins in Belfast in 1867. I imagine that is where other people have taken the date 1867 as gospel. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR53-RZD?cid=fs_email citing DEATHS entry for Timothy Irvins; citing Belfast, 1867, vol. 11, p. 164, General Registry, Custom House, Dublin; FHL microfilm 101,583. Family lore suggests that he and his wife were planning to emigrate to Canada but Timothy died before that could happen: could that be why listed in Belfast? is that where the ship would leave from?? Again, it was was believed that his wife came ahead to Canada but no one knows where or when.. Also that one daughter remained in Ireland, could that be who married David Nesbitt? One last question, is the Parish of Rashee the same a Ballycor? perhaps a name change?? Thanks again for all your help, Sharon.

Sharonl,

The Timothy Irvins who died in 1867 was a cabinet maker, not a labourer, so I don’t think it’s your family at all. I remain pretty sure your Timothy died pre 1864. I think as you say, someone just guessed that death without checking anything. Your information that Timothy died just before emigrating would perhaps point to a death around 1843 to me. If he was Presbyterian and a labourer, there won’t be a church record of his burial and he almost certainly wouldn’t have been able to afford a gravestone.

It’s unusual for elderly people to emigrate. They usually prefer to stay where they are, with familiar surroundings. They rarely fully settle in the new land, if they do go. If Timothy had been thinking of emigrating, it’s more likely that he’d have done that when he was still of working age. (The most popular age for migrating was/is your 20s. But folk aged 40 often went. Folk aged 70 only did it in extremis). If Andrew was thinking of emigrating in the early 1840s, then maybe his father was part of that plan.

There are a lot of poorly researched trees on Ancestry, and a lot of care is needed with them. They are a useful starting off point but a lot of the early information is often wrong. Something that I suspect folk don’t understand fully is that most of the pre 1901 Irish censuses are lost, save for some fragments, whereas the Scottish (and English) censuses for 1841 – 1891 all still exist.  Most Scottish Presbyterian baptism records are on-line. Most Irish Presbyterian baptism records are not.  When you get a common Scottish name like William Irvine, Ancestry automatically searches the Scottish censuses and baptisms and throws up possible matches there. William Irvine in Eastwood could well be a typical example. So people seize on this and think it’s their family, and into the tree it happily goes. Apparently untroubled in this case by the fact that the wife’s name is completely wrong.

You mention the family not showing up in censuses. Well the simple explanation is that they don’t exist in Ireland, save for a few fragments. They were destroyed, some as a result of the 1922 fire and some were pulped during a paper shortage. There were censuses in 1821, 1831 and 1841 which would have included your family but they are all largely destroyed now, certainly for the area where your family lived. That’s why you can’t find them in any census.

Regarding Timothy marrying in the Church of Ireland, that’s perfectly possible. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, after which she’d normally attend her husband’s. So if Timothy’s wife was Church of Ireland that’s where they’d have married. It’s probably also where they would have married if she’d been Catholic. The RC church would not marry mixed denomination couples then (indeed they are not very keen on it now) but the Church of Ireland would, so that’s where many mixed denomination couples went. (After 1845 they also had the option of a Register Office which William & Margaret O’Hara chose, suggesting to me she was RC).  Several of the trees also have Timothy marrying a Margaret O’Hara too. Bit of a coincidence? But might be correct. Probably not though.

There was a slight question mark over the validity of Presbyterian marriages pre 1845 (when the law changed and formally validated them) particularly if they were of mixed denomination. People with land sometimes used the Church of Ireland because they were worried about inheritance issues if the marriage was ruled invalid. However the average labourer had no such concerns and the record books are full of Presbyterian marriages back to the 1600s. So most Presbyterians would marry in their own church. But as I say if the bride was RC or Church of Ireland, then they may have married in the Church of Ireland. But their children would normally be baptised in the husband’s church.

It is odd that only Andrew shows up in Ballyeaston’s baptism records. Their records only start in 1814 so if any were before that then that would be one explanation. But the family moving and using a different church would be another. Braetown is near Glenwherry Presbyterian church. It has no baptisms before 1845 (records either lost or never kept). So they might have been baptised there and if so you’ll never know. 

Rashee & Ballycor are not the same place. They are separate parishes but they are adjacent so it wouldn’t be unusual for a labourer to be living in one and then later appear in the other. Map attached: 

https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/county_civil.php?county=Antrim

Presbyterians in Ireland don’t actually use the parish system. Which church you attended was a matter of personal choice or whim, and not always the closest to where you lived. If you want to check all the Presbyterian baptism records in that general area you can see what records exist, and what years they cover in the PRONI guide. The records themselves are not on-line and so you need to go to PRONI to look them up (or get a researcher to do that for you). This link explains what records exist, parish by parish:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/proni-guide-church-records

Labourers moved about to follow the available work. They tended to rent a cottage from a farmer. Rent could be paid in cash but was often paid by an agreed number of days work on the farm each year, after which the labourer was free to take any other work that was available, eg on other farms or on government contracts eg road building. In the winter months they often wove on hand loom weaving machines similar to those still used in the Outer Hebrides to make Harris Tweed. The main product in Ireland in the 1840s would have been linen but they did also weave calico, wool, and other products.  Changing agricultural practices including some mechanisation were starting the reduce the need for labourers on farms and water powered mills made linen faster and to a better standard than most home weaving, so that was rendering home weaving less economic. A population explosion and various attacks of potato blight all influenced the decision to emigrate.

Margaret could well be the daughter who stayed in Ireland.  There also remains the question of what happened to William Irvine and Margaret O’Hara, after they married in 1854? I reckon he’s part of the family too. Timothy is a very rare name and William was living pretty close to Ballynashee. I looked for statutory births for that couple 1864 onwards but didn’t see any, suggesting they had left Ireland (or had no children).

Emigrants in the 1840s could have sailed from Belfast but there were also sailings from places like Larne and Londonderry. And a lot sailed from Liverpool. The agents often threw in the short journey to Liverpool as part of the package.  Liverpool then was acting as a clearing house for emigrants from most of Europe and so had many more departures to North America than there were directly from Ireland.

I have attached an advert from the Belfast Commercial Chronicle 1828 for emigrants to obtain land in Canada and also a letter from 1847 summarising that summers likely emigrant traffic. Also a page from the Northern Whig  21.3.1843 (a Belfast paper) with adverts for sailings to Canada from Belfast & Liverpool. Perhaps gives a flavour of the times.