Edward Neil/Neal/Neill/Neale & Ellen AND William Neill & Margaret Jane McElhaney/McElhinney

Brigitte,

The Edward McNeill who married in 1846 married a Sarah Stafford, so I don’t think that’s your family:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1846/09313/5372527.pdf

Given Edward & Ellen’s ages when they died, both look to have  been born around 1812 – 1817, so I think it’s more likely that they married pre 1845 (when statutory marriage registration started). Probably they married in their 20s. So sometime in the 1830s. In that case, the record may not be on line. And it may not exist either. Not every church has records for the 1830s.

Moneymore Church of Ireland is in the parish of Ardtrea. Their records start in 1811. Some years are on the rootsireland site (I don’t know the exact years). There are also 2 other churches within the parish at Woodschapel & Ballyeglish. It’s not clear whether their records are on-line.  Possibly not.  You may need to go to PRONI to check them all for certain.  If you are unable to go yourself, you could employ a researcher. Researchers in the PRONI area: http://sgni.net

Regarding possible siblings for Eliza & William James, I searched the statutory records for marriage registered in Magherafelt 1860 – 1880 with the surname NEALE (which should cover the likely variants). I got 108 matches on the irishgenealogy site. You might want to work your way through them to see if any have father Edward from Mawillian etc.

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church after which she'd attend her husband’s. So marriage and subsequent children’s baptisms may not necessarily be in the same church. And of course if the husband didn’t come from that area then that creates additional options.  Knowing Edward came from Armagh, but not precisely where, is very challenging. There are 28 parishes and at least 40 Church of Ireland churches in that county and not all have records for the early 1800s. See map:

https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/county_civil.php?county=Armagh

Frankly, it will be very difficult to find out where he was baptised, especially without his parents names. There would be no easy way of knowing which baptism was the right one.

Elwyn,

Thank you for your quick response.

I have no idea if my Eliza born c1846 would have had older siblings but I feel it is likely and that her brother William James b1852 was perhaps Edward and Ellen's last child:

Because, as you say, if Edward & Ellen were born 1812-1817 it is likely they were married in the 1830s and Ellen would have been about 35 yrs old in 1852.

So I am unsure why you said you searched "statutory records for marriage registered in Magherafelt 1860 – 1880"

I should be looking 1830-1850?

I went to the link https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

and typed in Neale [was then going to narrow down results by limiting to Londonderry/Derry] but all the results were for Cork, Kerry, Dublin - no Northern Ireland Counties.  Please what am I doing wrong?

Also, do you know what age Ellen is likely to have been when she married Edward - bearing in mind they were Protestant - I don't know if that makes a difference but I think they tended to marry when older?  Was it common for girls to marry at 16 or at 21?

Thanks again

Brigitte

Brigitte,

Birth and death registration didn’t start in Ireland till 1864. RC marriages were registered from 1864 and non RC (eg Church of Ireland) from 1845. So you won’t find birth certificates for Edward, Ellen, Eliza or William James. 

Prior to 1864/1845 you need to search church records. Not all churches have records and of those that do, not all are on-line. Some of the records for Moneymore are on-line on the rootsireland site (but not the irishgenealogy site). Mawillian is in the parish of Magherafelt. Their records might therefore be worth checking. They start in 1718 but again they are not on-line anywhere as far as I am aware.

You had asked if Eliza & William James had any siblings. Knowing that there are no birth certificates for someone born in the 1830s or 1840s, what I am suggesting you could do instead is find possible any such siblings via their marriages.  So if Edward & Ellen married in say 1835 – 1840 they would later have children marrying from say 1860 onwards. Hence the marriage search for the years 1860 – 1880.  You can do that on-line whereas you may not be able to search for their baptisms on-line.

You ask why you are only finding matches in Cork, Kerry & Dublin. I suspect you are searching the wrong part of the irishgenealogy website. For my marriage search, you need the civil records section. I suspect you have been looking at church records.  There are no church records for Co. Derry on that site yet. So that’s probably why you aren’t finding any. 

I think sometimes there’s a belief that all church and civil records are on-line these days. In Ireland they most certainly are not. As far as Northern Ireland is concerned, there are copies of most of the surviving church records in PRONI but a personal visit is required to access them. There are even one or two churches where the Minister still holds the only copy and you then need to make an appointment to go and see them. 

Regarding the age women married at, in general that would be around 19 – 24. Marriage at 16 would have been pretty uncommon. There wasn’t a formal minimum age then. (It’s 16 today but that wasn’t a legal requirement in the mid 1800s). But in general the groom had to be in a position to support his wife financially so tended to be 20 or over.

People in Ireland in the 1800s didn’t celebrate birthdays and often had little idea of what their age was. Consequently most ages need to be taken with a pinch of salt.  Especially on a death certificate where obviously the information cannot be first hand. Errors of up to 10 years on a death certificate for someone in their 60s or 70s was very common. Search 5 years either side of an apparent age is the general advice.

You asked about a possible connection with William Neill born 1871 who married Margaret Jane McElhaney.  I couldn’t find such a couple at first but looking on Ancestry I see a tree with them. However that William was born in 1818 not 1871. Hence my difficulty in locating him. He was in Baltimore by 1844 and died there in 1874. Is that the family you mean? If so, all I can tell you is that the Neill family tree says William was born in Tyrone. (Maybe the owner can tell you the source).  Given that Edward was born in Armagh, I wouldn’t immediately expect there to be a connection. The surname is very common in Ulster.   You would probably need to do a DNA comparison with a descendant of that family to know for certain.

Elwyn,

Thank you - especially for clarifying that I should be searching civil records.  I have now found the 108 records you referred to.

Also I must apologise - I see you did say Marriages 1860-1880 for possible siblings to Eliza and William John not births.

I have realised in the past that Irish Church records are not all online eg the baptism record information for William John came direct from Moneymore Church, many years ago - as far as I know it is not online - I have not been able to find it anywhere.

True what you say about the ages too - a Granddaughter of Eliza told me when she died [in 1939] "nobody knew how old she was" and she didnt have a birth certificate so the family "guessed" an age to put on the death certificate.

I must apologise again:  William Neill's year of birth 1871 - that is a typo - it should have read 1817.

I also found out, just yesterday, that the name Mcelhaney - is the spelling in USA - there are next to no irish records online for that spelling - so I suspect the common spelling back in Ireland was Mcelhinney.

Please, how do I get back into my original message to change the date of 1871 to the correct 1817 AND add the surname Mcelhinney to the message subject line? - can you do that for me?

Now here is the thing: you say it is a long shot that my Edward is related to William Neill who married Margaret Jane Mcelhaney and I totally agree! - but, I have 2 DNA matches with descendants of William Neill & Margaret Jane Mcelhaney. There must be a connection somewhere.

So, the DNA matches are what started me off again looking at this branch of my family.  I have seen the Ancestry trees and contacted the owner of one - who has a photo of William - but she did not reply.

I found some information on William Neill and family in USA on Findagrave and a descendant [not a DNA match] has said she will work with me to try and find out more.

Many thanks again - your help and your clear explanations are much appreciated.

[Hoping I have not made any more errors in this message !]

Brigitte

Elwyn,

Just found out how to edit the original message.  All good.

Regards,

Brigitte

Brigitte,

Yes McIlhenny or McElhenny is the more likely spelling in Ireland but people weren’t all that bothered about how names were spelled then. The concept of a ”correct” version of a name for a person or place is rather a 20th century thing, designed for modern officialdom.  In the 1800s and earlier it was very much at the whim of the person recording the information, and varied all the time.

People with trees on Ancestry who don’t reply to messages is quite common. I can’t really offer an explanation but I have experienced it myself on many occasions.

Regarding inaccurate ages, as evidence, I have attached a letter which I found in parish records in PRONI from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of age.” He clearly had only the vaguest idea and couldn’t narrow it down to within 9 years. (The likely reason for the letter was that the old age pension was being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof of age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life, establishing his age accurately became relevant to him).