Tracing my Irish Roots

Benny,

There was no “correct’ spelling of the surname. It will have varied all the time in Ireland. In a society where many people weren’t all that literate, it was down to the whim or knowledge of the priest or other person recording the information to decide how to spell it. But even in families that were literate, they didn’t seem to bother and so expect it to change all the time.

I assume your family was Roman Catholic.  Statutory birth registration didn’t start in Ireland till 1864  (1855 in Scotland). Prior to that we have to rely on church records, where they exist. Unfortunately Rasharkin’s RC parish records don’t start till 1848, 2 years after your family left Ireland. So you are not going to find any marriage or baptism records for them, if that’s the parish they were born and married in.

You presumably know that Scottish birth certificates for the years 1855 and 1861 onwards normally record where and when the parents were married. And in 1855 only, additional information was noted about parents ages and places of birth. If any children were born in 1855, well worth viewing the certificate.

I have attached the tithe applotment records for Rasharkin in 1834. The tithes were a land tax so basically just list farmers, not labourers or servants etc. However if either of your 2 families were farmers then they should be there. (You should get Bernard & Mary Ann’s parents names & occupations from their death certificates).

There was a Magugan and a Maguigan in the parish. They are the nearest. (Magugan & Maguigan could be variants of McGuckian). No McKillops.

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/rasharkin-parish.php

Griffiths Valuation was compiled in 1861/2. It contains more of the population and there were 3 McKillop households in Rasharkin then (so possible parents, perhaps?) They were in the townlands of Carnfinton, Crushybracken and Anticur. If any of the names seem to fit, let me know and I’ll see if I can find a bit more on the relevant people.

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/griffiths-valuation/parish-of-rasharkin.php

Several McGuckians Michael in Duneany, Bernard, James jr, John Jr & John snr in Killycreen. So Killycreen might be a townland worth looking at.

1 Daniel McGuigan in Duneany in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Glenbuck/Duneany/929466/

Denis McKillop in Anticur in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Glenbuck/Anticur/929356/

Jane McGuckian in Anticur in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Glenbuck/Anticur/929335/

The townlands I have mentioned are all very close to each other and I’d guess therefore that your family came from one of them. You can see their relative locations using the placenamesni site:

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/9b31e0501b744154b4584b1dce1f85…

If you can provide some parents names and fathers occupations, I’ll search further.

A portion of the 1851 census for Rasharkin has survived but unfortunately it does not include any of the townlands mentioned so far except Carnfinton. 1 McGugan household:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Kilconway/Rasharkin/Carnfinton/8/

Elwyn

Thanks for your reply. 

The only information I have for my great great grandparents Bernard and Mary Ann is from their 6th child Eliza Jane who was born in Dalry in Ayrshire, Scotland in1863 after my great grandfather William. On her birth record it states that Bernard and Mary Ann were married in Rasharkin in 1844, but it doesn't say what Townland they came from. Bernard and Mary Ann were of the Catholic Faith. All of their 7 children were all baptised in Scotland. James, Margaret, John and Joseph were baptised in St Margaret's RC Church in Airdrie, which is the oldest Catholic Church in the whole of the Diocese. My great grandfather William, Eliza Jane and Mary Ann were baptised in St Palladius RC Church in Dalry. I have records of all the children's baptism records. All of their surnames are spelt differently except my great grandfather William and his sisters Eliza Jane and Mary Ann which is spelt McGookin. On the Scottish Census of 1861 the surname is spelt McGuckian. On my grandfather's Bernard's birth record, who is William's son, the surname is also spelt McGuckian as is William's on the same record, but also as I said previously my  great grandfather William changed the spelling of the surname to what it is now McGoogan in 1899 when his youngest son William was born. 

I know in those times is was very common that the surname was more or less guessed due the fact that the parents couldn't read or write and as you say it was down to the parish priest or whoever registered the birth to spell the surname what they thought it should be. In Scotland it was it legal to mandatory register a birth after 1855.

I did contact the parish of St. Mary's RC Church in Rasharkin and emailed the Parish Priest for assistance concerning both families of Bernard and Mary Ann, but unfortunately I have had no reply, which is very frustrating.

In the Scottish Census of 1861 it stated that Bernard and his oldest James, who was 14 years old were employed as Ironstone Miners in Dalry. 2 thirds of the Ironstone mined in Scotland at that time was produced in Ayrshire and Lanarkshire, this was melted into Iron Ore to produce steel. In fact the Town I was born in Coatbridge was known as the "Iron Burgh" as a large amount of steel and components were manufactured there in those times up until the 1970's to 80's. 

So I take it that way back when Bernard and Mary Ann came to Airdrie in Scotland sometime after 1844 it was for Bernard to work in the Ironstone Mines there as James was born in 1846. I know a lot of Irish people came to Scotland in those days as in the Lanarkshire there were dozens of mines there and in Ayrshire were they finally moved too sometime before to Dalry, prior to the 1861 census. 

I really appreciate your help Elywn as I believe that we all should know we're our ancestors came from and be proud of that. 

If Bernard was the eldest son in the family in Ireland then it's possible that he was named after his father. It is also possible that his eldest son James was named after a member of the family. I know it was very common to name children this way, not like today. 

Any further information you could find out for me would be much appreciated. 

Regards, Stay safe

Benny

👍🙏

Elwyn, 

I have found my great great grandfather Bernard's death record from 1872, occupation Coal Miner. It states his age was 42, but this could be incorrect.

He died in a mining accommodation called Burn Row in a town in Ayrshire called Kilwinning. His wife is Mary Ann McKillop and the death is registered by his oldest son James. Also on the death record it states his father name  was James McGuckian and he was employed as a labourer. His mother's name was Agnes McGuckian, maiden name, Brannan. It also stated that both of Bernard's parents are deceased at the time of his death in 1872.

Is this of assistance Elwyn in my Irish search. Could you please investigate this new information on my behalf as I would be extremely grateful to you. 

I am also trying to access Mary Ann's death record but up till now with no success. Its very possible that when Bernard died in 1872, the family would have had to move home as the Coal Mining owner's of the Miners Row in those times, tended to do when the head of the house died when in employment. 

Regards 

Stay Safe and look after yourself Elwyn

Benny

🙏👍

Benny,

You are obviously curious as to why your ancestors went to Scotland. Ireland lacks natural resources. No coal, oil, iron ore etc, and so apart from a modest amount of shipbuilding in Belfast and the Belfast linen mills (which mostly only employed women or teenagers as they were cheaper & nimbler), it did not really get the industrial revolution that benefited England and Scotland where mills, steelworks, ship building, coal mining and all their support industries were major employers creating hundreds of thousands of new jobs. Much better paid than subsistence farming or weaving. (Labourers usually did weaving in the winter months when there wasn’t much farm work needed). Added to that you had the effects of a massive population explosion in Ireland – up from 3 million in 1750 to 8 million in 1841 (no-one is really sure of the reasons why but reduced neo-natal deaths seem to be a factor) and the famine. So some push factors and some pull factors saw huge numbers of people leave Ireland. Something like 8 million people emigrated from Ireland between 1801 & 1921.

https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/emigration-Ireland-19th-century.html

If you look at the Scottish censuses for the Glasgow area in the late 1800s, you will see that about every fifth person recorded there was born in Ireland. Scotland was a particularly popular place to go to work because it was easy and very cheap to get to. Several sailings every day from Belfast, plus regular sailings from Portrush, Ballycastle and Londonderry, not to mention Dublin. The shipping companies main business was cargo and the passengers were just top-up revenue. Competition was fierce and passenger fares very low. People working in Scotland could come home for weddings or the harvest, as well as holidays (every July there would then be a huge exodus to Ireland for the Glasgow Fair).  You could also send children back to stay with their grandparents, thereby leaving the wife free to work. You couldn’t do all those things so easily from Australia, America or Canada. 

Knowing that James McGuigan was a labourer rules him out of being in the tithes as he wouldn’t have had land to merit an entry. He could be in Griffiths though (1861). As I mentioned in a previous post there was a James McGuckian in Killycreen in a labourer’s house on plot 3b. The Valuation revision records show that James jnr was deleted in 1864. So he had either left or died. Landlord was James McGuckian senior, ie probably his father. (Copy attached).

Death registration started in Ireland in 1864. I have searched the records from 1864 to 1872 for the deaths of James McGuckian and Agnes Brennan. Part of Rasharkin falls in the Ballymoney registration district and part in Ballymena. I didn’t find any likely deaths in Ballymena but there were 3 possibles in Ballymoney. A James McGuckian died in 1868 aged 79. A Nancy[1] McGuician died in 1870 aged 82 and another Nancy McGuckian in 1866 aged 86. None of these deaths are viewable free. You have to pay £2.50 a time to view them on the GRONI site. If either James or Ahnes died before 1864 then there are no death records to search.

The surname Brennan is found in the Rasharkin area. There were about 6 in 1861 (all named Patrick curiously). No Brannans. 2 Brennan and 1 Branan in the parish in 1834 tithes:

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/rasharkin-parish.php

Not likely to be your immediate family as these were farmers but just to show the name is found in the area.

Possibly DNA testing may be a way of matching with others who have additional information about where the family originate. Family Tree DNA reportedly has more people with Ulster roots than any other company. That obviously increases the chances of finding a match. You might want to try them or, if you have already tested, you can transfer your results to them for no fee.

The North of Ireland Family History Society is running an Ulster DNA project in conjunction with FTDNA and can offer testing kits at a reduced price.  http://www.nifhs.org (Go to DNA project on the website).

Elywn

Once again thank you very much for your assistance. 

On the family search org site I have managed to find out that a James McGuigan who was born in 1806 died in 1902 in Ballymacaldrick,hus occupation is down as farmer. The only problem I have with this is that on my great great grandfather Bernard's death record of 1872 it said that both his father James and mother Agnes were both deceased at the time of his death in 1872. On the same site it states that James was born in 1806, so this could be the James that died in 1868. 

Also on the same site for Agnes Brannan it said that her father was named James and her mother was Mary. It also said that she was born in 1806 and baptised on 14th November the same year in St Ann's, Shankill, Church of Ireland. So it's not surpsring that there is no mention of her in the Rasharkin area as you know Shankill is part of Belfast. This is the only information I have of my great great great grandmother Agnes Brannan and her parents and family so far. 

Regards stay safe 

Benny

👍😊

Benny,

This looks to be James McGuigan who died in 1902, in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Dunloy/Ballymacaldrick/946037/

Apart from the fact he should have been dead in 1872, according to the Scottish certificate, he also has the wrong occupation. Farmer and labourer are very different, and with a significant status in society. Unlikely to mix them up.

Death here:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05673/4598068.pdf

Here’s Patrick’s birth in 1872. His mother was Martha Ann McHenry.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03264/2196383.pdf

She died 1896:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05901/4674324.pdf

I’d wonder about that Church of Ireland baptism for Agnes Brannan in 1806.  St. Anne’s records go back to the 1700s and are on-line, whereas there are no records for Rasharkin for the same period. In my experience, some researchers just take the nearest match they can find on the internet and appear to say “well that’s the only one I can find, so it must be my relative.” I’d be inclined to query with the tree owner how they know this is the correct baptism.

Elywn

I think that you are correct that the James who died in 1902, farmer, isn't my great great great grandfather James McGuigan, as this James's son Patrick's mother was Martha Ann McHenry and not Agnes Brannan.

As I have already said my great great grandfather Bernard died in 1872 and it said that both his parents died prior to his death and as such I believe that to be true.

I also think you are correct Elwyn concerning Agnes Brannan who was baptised in Shankill in Belfast for 2 reasons. Firstly, James was from Rasharkin and was of the Catholic faith and how could he have met this Agnes Brannan who lived in Belfast over 35 miles away, although not impossible. Secondly this Agnes was from the protestant faith and as such is it likely that they could have married outwith their faiths in those times Elwyn, I'm not sure, what do you think.

On the family search org site it says that the James McGuigan I'm looking for states that he had 8 children, James born1820, Hugh born 1822 to 1862, Mary born 1823 to 1891,Bernard, my great great grandfather born 1824 to 1872, Patrick born 1825 to 1879, Thomas born 1826 to 1883, Joseph born 1831 to 1893 and Hyndman born 1832 to 1875, this is a very unusual name Elywn, so this is definitely the family of my great great grandfather Bernard, as he named his eldest son James Francis, another Joseph Patrick.

On trying to find out the correct Agnes Brannan, is it possible as you say that she was called Nancy Brannan, Agnes or Nancy  Brennan, what do you think Elywn and how could we track down the correct wife of my great great great grandfather James McGuigan.

I have also found out that 2 of Bernard's sons the brothers of my great grandfather William, emigrated with their wife's and some childern to Ohio in America in the late 1800's. James Francis McGoogan as the spelling was, died in 1909 and Joseph Partick McGoogan died in 1924. I have seen the gravestone of James Francis McGoogan in St. Mary's Cemetery in Ohio, so  I have American ancestor's Elywn.

I am very keen to find out the correct Agnes, Nancy Brannan, Brennan or other variations of the surname who was my great great great grandmother Elwyn and I would be very grateful for your assistance. Elwyn do you live in the Rasharkin area of County Antrim.

Regards, Stay Safe and all the best from Bonny Scotland.

Benny

👍😊

Elwyn

It says I have a new reply that was posted over a hour ago. Can't seem to find it.

Regards

Benny

👍😊

Benny,

There were plenty of mixed marriages in the 1800s. They are easy enough to find. They show up in the 1901 & 1911 censuses where you often see husband and wives of different denominations. Sometimes one spouse converted to the other’s faith. Sometimes not. In the case of protestants who converted to RC, you often see an adult baptism in the RC baptism records about a month before the marriage. The other option for mixed denomination couples after 1845 was a Register Office ceremony.

Neither the RC church nor the Presbyterian church would undertake mixed marriages before 1845, so someone had to convert. Or they married in the Church of Ireland which was open to all denominations and would marry anyone.

But I agree with you about Agnes probably not being the right Agnes. Too far away is the main issue, though being a COI may also be a factor.  Plus I know that Shankill’s records are on-line, when many other churches’ records are not, and I have seen people just guessing information before. That’s what I think has happened here. If that Agnes is on an Ancestry tree, ask the tree owner what evidence they have that it’s the correct lady. Suspect they probably won’t have any.

My view is that Agnes will have come from the Rasharkin area and was probably RC. People mostly married locally in those days, unless they were in a trade or profession involving travel eg soldier, sailor, stonemason, policeman. Your problem is simply that the parish does not have any baptism records before 1848, so there won’t be any record of her baptism or of her marriage to find. RC parishes generally didn’t keep burial records at that time (and none exist for Rasharkin). As a labourer’s wife she’s unlikely to have a gravestone. Most labouring families couldn’t afford one.  There may be no written records of Agnes or her husband to find.

Yes I do live quite near Rasharkin (about 10 miles from the village).

Elwyn

Once again thank you for your assistance and expert advice. 

You maybe correct that I may not be able to trace the correct Agnes/Nancy that I am looking for.

What I have found out that my great great grandfather Bernard who died in 1872 in Dalry in Ayrshire, 2 sons, brothers of my  great grandfather William McGoogan, James and Joseph emigrated to America in 1888 to Ohio and worked as miners. They took their wife and children who were born in Scotand with them and while in America they had further children.

I found out that James's oldest son, John Patrick McGoogan who was born in Scotland became a Catholic Priest and in 1914 was drafted into the American army as a chaplain. 

I have a record of his death and a photograph of his gravestone. He was Parish Priest in St Peters Catholic Church in Loudenville, Ohio for 10 years prior to his death of a heart attack in 1932. I also have the local newspaper obituary and it said that as well as various Bishops attending his requiem mass service over 83 other priests also attended. It said he was a well respected priest and person.

How about that Elwyn, finding out that one of my ancestors became a Priest and was a man of great importance within his community. I am very proud of finding that out. So as well as my Irish journey looking for my family roots I am also on a journey no doubt through various states of America.

I will keep in touch, if that's OK with you Elwyn as your help has been of great value to me.

Regards stay safe and all the best from Bonny Scotland

Benny

👍😁🙏