Looking for help tracing the relatives of Ellen Ryan, b Gowran, Co. Kilkenny c1828

Terry:

I searched on the subscription site Roots Ireland and from 1826-1834, there were seven Ellen Ryan baptisms in Gowran RC church. Three were after 1830. One was the one you located in 1826 and there were three others as shown below. None of the three had a Mary Ryan as a sponsor.

Ellen Ryan  baptized April 2 1826 father Michael Ryan mother Bridget (Biddy) Macgrath lived in Lavistown

Ellen Ryan baptized December 27 1827 father Jeremiah Ryan mother Mary Tyrrell lived in Gowran

Ellen Ryan baptized September 29 1828 father James Ryan mother Catherine Carty Lived in Freneystown

Roger McDonnell

Hi Roger,

Thanks for that, I don't have access to Roots Ireland. Looking at Google Maps, Lavistown looks to be about 10km away from Gowran town, so I would imagine that she would have named Lavistown rather than Gowran as her place of birth if she was indeed born there? Same with Freneystown, it is in the barony of Gowran, but a fair hike from Gowran town, so I am still leaning towards Gowran town being the place of birth, but I will keep the other two in mind just the same. Was there any in 1830 from Gowran town, or were they all after 1830? On Anthony's birth registration on 3rd July 1861 she gives her age as 30, so 1830-1831 might conceivably be correct, but I am leaning towards 1826-1828 -- I have never heard of a lady saying she is older than she really is!   :-)

Terry:

Emigrants generally used the "larger town" to describe where they were from rather than their small townland. So if I lived in Lavistown and emigrated, I would generally use Gowran as my place of residence on forms in my new country.

No 1830 Ellen Ryan baptism in Gowran. There was a September 6 1831 baptism with father Thomas Ryan mother Margaret Walshe. No place of residence shown.

Also June 30 1833 baptism father Nicholas Ryan mother Mary Neill lived in Gowran.

Roger

Hi Roger,

Thanks for that clarification, looks like the three above all fit the bill then. But looking at the second one, 27th December 1827 is pretty damn close to 1828. When the "Kate" arrived on 13th October 1850 Ellen would have still been 22, as she stated on the passenger list, and that one was in Gowran.

I am going to get a DNA test done next week, hopefully that may help a bit once we get the results back. Turns out I have a lot more Irish blood in me than I knew, I always knew my father's mother as Scottish, because she had a wicked Scottish accent, as well as a Scottish name (MacInnes), but it turns out she was only Scottish on her father's side, and her mother's side was also Irish! Guess that explains why I love Enya so much!   ;-)

In the meantime, I have a favour if you have some time to spare, when the Coyles moved up to Morpeth in 1859, a local farmer by the name of Michael Ryan passed away. Now I haven't confirmed that they were or were not related yet, but if not, it is a hell of a co-incidence, so I would love to be able to rule it out.

Michael b. 1803 and Phillip Ryan b. 1807 @ THORNBACK, PARISH OF St CANICES, COUNTY KILKENNY, IRELAND, were both convicted of conspiracy to murder at Kilkenny Court in 1835, but interestingly, they weren't sentenced to death, but transported for life in 1837 on board the "Hive". But that wasn't the end of their problems, because the "Hive" ran aground and was wrecked less than a day's sail from Sydney Harbour. All 250 prisoners, mostly Irish, were rescued, and transported by another ship to Sydney. They were both given a conditional pardon on 1st August 1849, and went on to become respectable and successful farmers in the Morpeth area, near Maitland. But to the day they died, they both insisted that they were set up, and when Michael died in 1859 Phillip had an extraordinary inscription engraved on his brother's headstone:

GLORIA IN EXCELSIS DEO
ERECTED BY PHILLIP RYAN;
IN MEMORY OF HIS BROTHER
MICHAEL RYAN, OF SWAN REACH;
A NATIVE OF THORNBACK, PARISH OF
St CANICES, COUNTY KILKENNY, IRELAND
WHO HAS BEEN CIRCUMVENTED OF HIS
JUST & LEGAL PROPERTY, PROSECUTED
BY WILFUL AND CORRUPT PERJURY,
RETURNED GUILTY BY AN INFAMOUS
AND BIGOTED JURY, FOR BEING A SINCERE
PATRIOT AND SENTENCED WRONGFULLY
BY THE LAWS OF THE LAND.

Fare you well, dear Brother for a while
hoping the Almighty God has received
your soul, and on you smile, until his
herald summonses me to be for ever
blessed with thee. Amen.

DIED ON THE 28TH OF SEPR 1859
AGED 56 YEARS.

Swan Reach was the farm that they worked, approximately 320 acres of prime land just north of Morpeth and east of Maitland, now known as Hinton. As I say, I haven't confirmed that they were related to Ellen, but given the fact that St Canices is less than 20km from Gowran, and the fact that the Coyles moved from Sydney up to the Morpeth area around the same time as Michael was dying, it sounds feasible. So if you have some time to spare, could you check the BDM for Thornback and see if you can find records for Michael and Phillip Ryan, sons of John and Elizabeth Ryan, and hopefully we will find a common relative to Ellen. And I would love to know more about the offence as well. I will add the brothers to the website next week, but I thought we could keep everything Ryan-related in one thread for the time being, to make it easier for future searchers?

Cheers,

Terry

Terry:

Very interesting story regarding Philip and Michael.

I searched for Michael and Philip in the St/ Canice's records. I found an August 11 1800 baptismal record for a Philip Ryan with father John Ryan and mother Elizabeth Phelan. I did not find a Michael that was a child of this couple and did not find a Michael record around 1800-1810 with father John in this parish or any other Kilkenny parish.. There were older sisters to Philip: Catherine 1780 Mary 1788 Judith 1797 No location data provided and I assume there were not two John Ryan/Elizabeth Phelan couples in the parish.

Here is the link to the St. Canice's parish register from 1768-early 1881  https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0990   Don't know the quality and readability of the earlier records.

Roger

Hi Roger, thanks again for your assistance. Are there any surviving newspaper records for the Kilkenny area in the 1800s? I would imagine that conspiracy to murder wouldn't be an everyday occurrence in the region?

Cheers,

Terry

Terry:

I would doubt that there are newspapers surviving back to the 1830s. I would contact the main Co. Kilkenny library site and see if they can assist with your newspaper availability question.  https://www.kilkennylibrary.ie/eng/

Roger

Hi all,

I have recently found out that when Ellen arrived on the "Kate', the immigration record for the ship cites an existing relative in the colony, her brother John Ryan, living in George street, Sydney, which explains the John and Mary Ryan who were witnesses to the marriage in 1851. I have found a John and Mary Ryan, husband and wife, aged 27 and 24 respectively, who arrived in Sydney aboard the "Lady Peel" on 3rd July 1849, which fit the bill. John's calling was 'Nailor' or 'Tailor', and native place was given as 'Goran, Kilkenny'. Interestingly, a couple of other passengers were cited as being from Goran, Kilkenny, so probably an issue with the 'Kilkenny Cats' accent and English scribes? Wife Mary Ryan was cited as from Paulstown, Kilkenny, just up the road from Gowran.

So now I am hoping that someone can track down the birth registration for a John Ryan from Gowran b: ~1822, a marriage certificate for a John Ryan and Mary Something, ~1845/1848 in the Gowran/Paulstown area, given they didn't have any surviving children with them in 1849 when they arrived, and hopefully backtrack to a birth certificate for Mary Something in the Paulstown area ~1825? If we can compare the parents of both John and Ellen, at least we might be able to narrow down on her birth?

These Irish ancestors are doing my head in, but as I see it I have only two options, [1] disown them, which I don't want to do, or [2] take out a subscription to one of the Irish websites like RootsIreland, which is very expensive given our pathetic Aussie dollar exchange rate at the moment!

Cheers,

Terry

Terry:

Roots Ireland has an October 17 1848 marriage between a John Ryan and a Mary Murphy in Paulstown RC church. Both were shown as from Paulstown.

Three John Ryan baptisms in Gowran.

January 2 1815 father James mother Margaret Neil 

February 9 1818  father Jeremiah mother Mary Tescut (as transcribed) lived in Gowran

 October 12 1823 . Father Dennis and mother Catherine Dwyre   John lived in Flagmount

Roger

Hi Roger, thanks again for your help! The 1848 marriage sounds good, that was a year before they arrived in Sydney, so it makes sense. But so far we have:

John Ryans

January 2 1815 father James mother Margaret Neil 

February 9 1818  father Jeremiah mother Mary Tescut (as transcribed) lived in Gowran

October 12 1823 . Father Dennis and mother Catherine Dwyre   John lived in Flagmount

Ellen Ryans

April 2 1826 father Michael Ryan mother Bridget (Biddy) Macgrath lived in Lavistown

December 27 1827 father Jeremiah Ryan mother Mary Tyrrell lived in Gowran

September 29 1828 father James Ryan mother Catherine Carty Lived in Freneystown

September 6 1831 father Thomas Ryan mother Margaret Walshe. No place of residence shown.

June 30 1833 father Nicholas Ryan mother Mary Neill lived in Gowran.

The two that jump out at me are the John Ryan from February 9 1818, father Jeremiah, mother Mary Tescut(???) from Gowran, and Ellen Ryan from December 27 1827, father Jeremiah, mother Mary Tyrell from Gowran, but Tescut to Tyrell is a bit of a stretch? I will try to access the original records and see if [a] they are available and legible, and [b] I can possibly stretch Tescut to Tyrell with a bit of imagination.

Incidentally, I struck gold with the Ryan brothers, I think it was the British Newspapers archive, but I forgot to save the citation. I found a description of the trial and conviction of the Ryan brothers, and it does indeed sound a bit shonky, even for the times! They were originally charged with three crimes, which were contradictory, [1] Attempted murder, which would imply that they actively participated, [2] Conspiracy to murder, and [3] Inciting a third party to murder, which would imply that they weren't actively involved themselves. But even the judge/magistrate told the prosecutor on record to pick one and go with that, so they were tried and convicted on the second, conspiracy to murder. But the 'evidence' was mostly heresay, and dodgy witnesses, but good enough for the time to convict.

Cheers,

Terry

Terry:

The entry on the parish register for the 1818 is faint but I can make a case for Tyrell.

https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635320#page/89/mode/1up

Roger

Hi Roger,

Thanks once again! Maybe it is just wishful thinking, but I can just about see Tyrell in that signature if I try hard enough! It is definitely worth following up anyway, seeing that we don't have any other leads at the moment.

Cheers,

Terry

Hi all,

I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for this thread -- I just hope that the light isn't the headlight of a freight train heading for me!   :-)

The Jeremiah and Mary Ryan as parents is looking better -- by trawling through the NLI microfilm images line by line, page by page I have now come up with four possible siblings:

John Ryan, baptised 09/02/1818 @ Gowran. F: Jeremiah Ryan, M: Mary ?? (Turcell???)   https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635320#page/89/mode/1up

Biddy Ryan baptised 28/01/1823 @ Gowran. F: Jeremia Ryan, M: Mary Tercut ???   https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635320#page/111/mode/1up

William Ryan baptised 28/07/1825 @ Gowran. F: Jerry Ryan, M: Mary Turist ???   https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635320#page/138/mode/1up

Ellen Ryan baptised 27/12/1827 @ Gowran. F: Jerenica Ryan, M: Mary Aptell ???   https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635320#page/149/mode/1up

That confirms my suspicion that there was too big a time gap between John, born in ~1818, and Ellen, born ~1828, but we still have a fair gap between John and Biddy in 1823, so there may be another child or two between them that I have missed. What I would love, if anybody has some time to spare, would be to check Roots Ireland and see what they have transcribed for these records, and then to check the original images and see if you can make more sense of the various variations of surname for Mary than my 75-year old eyes, and come up with a sensible surname to fit all four children. I do have a possible marriage registration for Jeremiah and Mary, but I will hang on to it for the time being, so as not to taint your ideas.

Cheers,

Terry Chadban

Terry:

FYI. I'm the only one who is seeing this message thread unless someone by chance finds this message.

I looked at the four records and for William I can't find the record for some reason.

The John record we discusses above and I can make a case for Tyrrell. The Bridget record shows Tercut and the Ellen record shows Tyrrell.

Roger

Hi Roger,

I am hoping that other people who are searching for descendants of John Ryan and Ellen Ryan will eventually see this thread and save themselves some time and frustration!   :-(

Sorry about William's link, not sure what happened there, try this link:

https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635320#page/135/mode/1up

And a possible marriage registration for a Jeremiah Ryan and a Mary Turcut (as transcribed): https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635320#page/168/mode/1up

Except that I think it was Find My Past who transcribed Mary's surname as 'Terrill', rather than 'Turcut', and after a while the penny dropped -- Terrill doesn't make sense, unless you pronounce 'Tyrrell' in an Irish accent, then you could easily get 'Terrill'!

Then I did some digging in the Land Valuations in County Kilkenny, and couldn't find any Terrills, or Turcuts, but I did find two families named Tyrrell, living in Gowran! So my guess is that either the dude who wrote out the original marriage registration got it wrong, and so did the ones who wrote out the first three baptisms, but they got it right with Ellen's baptism, or maybe the surname really is Turcut?

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Cheers,

Terry