Joseph Gorman : Short Biography

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Hi i am related to Joseph Riggs and Mary Gorman...Their eldest daughter Elizabeth Riggs b 1867 married Thomas Irvine .. Their youngest son Willam Irvine is my Grandfather...

Paul

Sunday 10th May 2020 07:31PM

I don't know who posted the above about Joseph Gorman 1820 ? Paul also replying to you .

Joseph Gorman was my Great Great Great Grandfather. His daughter Mary who married Joseph Riggs had a daughter Annie born 7/10/1870 in Tullamore. She married Richard Henry Phillips known as Harry  in Tullamore and they lived in Lancashire England . They had 6 boys Edward who died young , John (Jack) , Alan, Francis (Frank), Richard Henry aka Harry, and Charles  O'Gorman (Charlie). Annie's husband Harry was killed in the Boer War in 1901 leaving her to raise the boys alone . My grandad was only 6 months old . The 1911 census shows that her Mother Mary had come to live with her following the death of her husband Jospeh and Annie's brother Thomas is also shown living with them . Annie died young aged only 53 in 1924 in Salford .  my Grandad Charlie married my nana Hilda Lowe and they had 5 children , my Mum being Marion .

KaranM

Thursday 24th September 2020 01:42PM

paul I have more information from the family tree.

as we know Joseph and Mary Riggs had Annie (Anne Mary Ita to be precise) b 1870 - (we believe Anne was a midwife) , they also had the boy Thomas George. Another son Francis (Frank) became a solicitor and had a practice in Didsbury Manchester . Annie's husband Richard Henry (Harry) was a solicitors clerk for him before he was recalled for the second Boer war in which he lost his life . But also on the tree is shown another daughter of Joseph and Mary - Margaret Mary and then we had a question mark with the name of Irvine ?, Lawler and Walter shown with Bernadette, Brian and Joan shown under that . So perhaps you can fill in that blank , would appear we are distant cousins . 

 

 

 

 

 

KaranM

Thursday 24th September 2020 02:12PM

Hello Karan and Paul,

I think I've talked to you both on Ancestry messenger. I posted the original message about Joseph Gorman and Eliza Doolan hoping to find someone with information about some of the other Gormans:) Instead I have you two, both descended from my Joseph Riggs and Mary Gorman - Paul from the eldest daughter Elizabeth who married Thomas Irvine in 1890 and Karan from  the second eldest daughter Annie who married Harry Phillips, also in 1890. The next daughter was Mary Patricia who married Patrick Murphy in 1900, then came Margaret who married James Anderson in 1916. Next came the four boys - William, Joseph, Francis (my grandfather) and Thomas George. Three of them, as well as Margaret before she married, went to Argentina. However, the only one to stay there was my grandfather Francis who emigrated to Argentina in 1908 and except for visits, never returned to Britain until he retired. He worked for British Railway and married his cousin Margaret Corrigan, daughter of Charles Corrigan and Elizabeth Gorman in 1909. The Corrigans had emigrated to Argentina from Tullamore in 1889. William, Joseph and George all served in WWI, William dying shortly afterwards. George married Mary Evans in 1919. Joseph became an optician in Lancashire and married Beatrice Brett in 1924. So that's all the children.

I'd really like to know about the story you have Karan about Harry Philips working for - who you thought was Annie's brother Francis. When Harry & Annie got married, Francis was 2 years old. Could it possibly have been Annie's uncle Francis Gorman? I've never been able to find any trace of him or of his brother James or sister Anne. The age would have made sense. Francis Gorman was born in 1856. Harry Phillips was born in 1863. What do you think?

SallyC

Friday 25th September 2020 12:47AM

Hello Sally

Yes have now been in contact with our respective cousin AP.

On the 1901 Census both William and Joseph (annie’s brothers) are shown living with Annie in Manchester at the 18 Milan Street address along with her family of sons – Annie having just lost her husband Harry (Richard Henry) in 1901 in South African Boer War. By the 1911 census neither of those brothers are still shown there but Annie’s brother Thomas George is and her Mother Mary (Gorman) also – then widowed. It transpired Mary G did go back to Tullamore where she died in 1915 (a census check there shows her living with her son Thomas George). Her husband Joseph Riggs (annies Father) is shown living in Manchester too having died in Prestwich hospital in 1908.

Yes there is an 18 year age gap between Annie and her brother Frank (Francis) – your Grandad, not an unusual  situation in those days. Frank was definitely a solicitor for a firm in Didsbury but we don’t know the name. Possibly a check with the Law society might confirm which one. Frank was a well known character within our family group of that time because my Great grandad Richard Henry (Harry – annies husband had worked for him as a solicitors clerk (as did Thomas George for a while too). When Harry was killed in SA in 1901, the Army didn’t want to pay Annie his pension on the grounds he was drowned and not killed ‘in action’ so to speak. Harry’s Father Richard Phillips and your grandfather Frank in his capacity as a solicitor, fought this decision and got Annie the pension reintstated.

We (the current generation) didn’t know that in 1908 Frank had gone to Argentina or that he had married his cousin Margaret Corrigan. What were the names of their children – which one is your parent?  Where did Frank live when he came back to the UK to retire and when did he die? I had read somewhere Joseph was an optician – possibly on the 1901 census.

I can’t find James Annie’s brother either as yet. I’ve been  spending a lot of time hunting down Richard Henry’s (Harry’s ) grave in SA and have finally found it ,so am trying to get it repaired and have a wreath laid hopefully on remembrance Sunday fingers crossed.(not by me sadly). Now I am able to look at the rest of our clan in more detail.

 

KaranM

Friday 25th September 2020 03:33PM

Hi Karen nice to hear your side of the Riggs story... I have chatted with Sally a few times and it is fascinating learn more about my relations. Well it looks we are distance cousins for sure Karen and it looks like that out of all of the Riggs that left Tullamore bound for England and Argintina many years ago. It's seem that the only one to stay was my gg grandmother Elizabeth Riggs who married my gg grandfather Thomas Irvine in Tullamore 1990 and the witness was Henry Phillips... As for Walter Irvine he is the eldest son of Elizabeth and Thomas and my father's uncle he never married or had any children but he was a very good natured man... My father William Irvine told me that Walter used to visit his aunt Annie Phillips to meet nis cousins and to see Manchester City play football he was a great fan.When I get more information I will pass it on.... Oh by the way I was born in Dublin and grew up there but moved to Westmeath 18 years ago, (not far from Tullamore). Are you in Manchester?...

Paul

Friday 25th September 2020 04:52PM

Are you on ancestry DNA Paul ? Annie's son Charlie - his wife and children (my Nana Hilda his wife and his children my aunties Elsa , Eileen and my Mum Marion all knew your great uncle Walter and were very fond of him , lovely man apparently. Only Elsa left now sadly but she has happy memories .  Where do the Lawlers Bernadette, Brian and Joan come into things ? I must admit I was shocked to see an entire exodus of the family (thought they were all to England , didn't know about Argentina ) so your Eliza must have felt quite alone ! Have you any idea what happened to their sibling James ? Can't find him . It's lovely to make contact with you all . 

KaranM

Friday 25th September 2020 05:17PM

Hello again,

I am fascinated to learn more about this solicitor Frank - he is definitely not Frank Riggs, Annie's little brother. When Harry Phillips died, Frank Riggs was still 12 years old. If you look on the Irish 1901 Census for Tullamore you will see Joseph and Mary Riggs with sons Frank age 12 and George age 9. When Harry died, the two older sons William and Joseph were living with Annie (to help her presumably). By 1911, Joseph Senior was dead (he fell down the stairs, so sad but he was blind), so Mary and George were with Annie. Frank by then was living in Argentina and married. My father, Marcus, and all his sisters were born in Argentina. He went to England to volunteer in WWII as did one of his sisters. He met my mother there after the war. The rest of the family didn't go to England until the late 40's/early 50's I think. We emigrated to Canada in 1958.

I want to try to research the Frank who was the solicitor. I feel he must have been family, so it makes sense he was a Gorman. Unless he was a Phillips? Have you researched the Phillips family Karan?

SallyC

Friday 25th September 2020 06:22PM

Karen if you would like to send a friend request I am on Facebook.... Paul Irvine... Rochfortbridge Westmeath...

Paul

Friday 25th September 2020 07:17PM

That's fascinating Sally , every bit of information that comes out Im sharing with my aunt who is quite elderly now (that's Elsa nee Phillips daughter of Charlie phillips and his wife Hilda Lowe), so I will pass that back up the tree and see what she comes back with . 

I hadn't intended doing the family research at all ,happened pretty much after I did the ancestry DNA test and discovered 2 brothers on my fathers side I didn't know I had ! Just met the second one recently and the first one 2 years ago ,so as you can imagine that has taken up a lot of my time !! Then I  came across anne Phillips on ancestry dna and that led me to trying to find Richard Henry Phillips's  (Harry senior ) grave in South Africa which I succeeded in doing last week , then It's a knock on effect isn't it ?becomes addictive one just keeps looking at more and more of our family . It's fascinating so I'll discuss the Frank / solicitor scenario with Elsa again and see what sense she can make if it. Doesn't help when each generation keeps using the same names ! Elsa was fascinated about the Argentina connections .  Where in Canada you ? 
 

PAUL cant find you on FB probably easier for you to request me Karan McKerrow (make sure you use the karan with an a and not Karen with an e !!!) 
 

 

KaranM

Saturday 26th September 2020 11:26AM